How To Fix The O-Line Discussion

beckmt
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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 6, 2017 6:31:20 GMT -6

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Post by beckmt on Apr 6, 2017 6:31:20 GMT -6

Apr 6, 2017 0:32:26 GMT -6 Minniman said:

Apr 5, 2017 11:46:40 GMT -6 Danchat said:

I'm starting to buy in more on the "Best Player Available" strategy. Yes, the Vikings have plenty of needs, but their true concern should be getting the best players they can. (though to be fair, both Laquon Treadwell and Mackensie Alexander were second on my draft board, behind Myles Jack and Andrew Billings respectively. Neither of those were reaches IMO.)

Also, Minniman, I'm interested to hear about what players you'd like the Vikings to draft in the second round. You seem to be able to identify which Vikings draft picks were busts in the past as they happened, so I'd like to see if you could do the same for this draft.

I have not really looked at the draft this year. Two funerals, a family reunion, and taxes have taken up my time.

I don't always get it right. I thought cornerback Justin Gilbert could be a good player in the NFL, but Cleveland traded picks to select him. I had my eye on C.J. Mosley for that pick, so it likely would not have been Gilbert, but it is an example of how much a crap shoot the draft can be. If the Vikings had selected Gilbert, I would not have been against it. Although I wanted Mosley, I though Barr had a lot of upside as well, so I was fine with that pick.

Best player available is tricky because many players are basically rated the same, and no one knows who the actual best player is until years after the pick. Then hindsight bias kicks in, and everyone thinks they know better than all of the NFL GMs.

Treadwell was highly rated coming out last season, but I thought there were better receivers available. His lack of speed and his ball skills in college were red flags. As it is, it is too early to tell if he is a full bust or not.

I saw the same red flags, especially about his speed, and agree with you that Vikings should have taken a pass on him. This was part of a horrible draft by Spielman and his scouts. We cannot afford another one.

Minniman
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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 6, 2017 15:01:48 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Apr 6, 2017 15:01:48 GMT -6

Apr 6, 2017 6:31:20 GMT -6 beckmt said:

Apr 6, 2017 0:32:26 GMT -6 Minniman said:

I have not really looked at the draft this year. Two funerals, a family reunion, and taxes have taken up my time.

I don't always get it right. I thought cornerback Justin Gilbert could be a good player in the NFL, but Cleveland traded picks to select him. I had my eye on C.J. Mosley for that pick, so it likely would not have been Gilbert, but it is an example of how much a crap shoot the draft can be. If the Vikings had selected Gilbert, I would not have been against it. Although I wanted Mosley, I though Barr had a lot of upside as well, so I was fine with that pick.

Best player available is tricky because many players are basically rated the same, and no one knows who the actual best player is until years after the pick. Then hindsight bias kicks in, and everyone thinks they know better than all of the NFL GMs.

Treadwell was highly rated coming out last season, but I thought there were better receivers available. His lack of speed and his ball skills in college were red flags. As it is, it is too early to tell if he is a full bust or not.

I saw the same red flags, especially about his speed, and agree with you that Vikings should have taken a pass on him. This was part of a horrible draft by Spielman and his scouts. We cannot afford another one.

I stated at the time, here are the three receivers (Doctson, Thomas, and Shepard) that I would like to see in purple, and two were available.

So far, the 2016 draft has been only good for a few teams, but we won't see how that shakes out for a few more years.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 6, 2017 15:34:04 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Apr 6, 2017 15:34:04 GMT -6

Apr 6, 2017 15:01:48 GMT -6 Minniman said:

Apr 6, 2017 6:31:20 GMT -6 beckmt said:

I saw the same red flags, especially about his speed, and agree with you that Vikings should have taken a pass on him. This was part of a horrible draft by Spielman and his scouts. We cannot afford another one.

I stated at the time, here are the three receivers (Doctson, Thomas, and Shepard) that I would like to see in purple, and two were available.

So far, the 2016 draft has been only good for a few teams, but we won't see how that shakes out for a few more years.

My favorite WR was Doctson and then Treadwell. I was pretty disappointed that the Skins took him one pick before we did, though Doctson was hurt most the season, I still think he can be a good receiver. I really didn't like Thomas but he had a fantastic rookie season... didn't see that coming. I agreed that Shepard was really underrated but he's a slot-only guy. Would have been a fine guy to spend a 2nd round pick on but probably not a 1st.

Last Edit: Apr 6, 2017 15:34:36 GMT -6 by Danchat

southwest
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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 8, 2017 10:56:38 GMT -6

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Post by southwest on Apr 8, 2017 10:56:38 GMT -6

At this point, the Vikes are set up to be able to take the BPA on their board. They will probably be looking at things like culture and scheme, as well as talent, and if there is a good player, at a position of need, all the better. If they hypothetically took the players they have now to camp, I think they would still come up with a solid team. They have two NFL caliber running backs, who they can count on, they have a few guys who look like they could be serviceable on the inside of the OL, and the third wide-out spot has a hyper-talented but unproven sophomore, and a couple low-risk high-reward vets to compete. Obviously more depth is better, and there is still room for improvement, but no matter what postions slick Rick drafts in which slots, I will withhold judgement.

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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 9, 2017 2:25:43 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 2:25:43 GMT -6

Apr 8, 2017 10:56:38 GMT -6 southwest said:

At this point, the Vikes are set up to be able to take the BPA on their board. They will probably be looking at things like culture and scheme, as well as talent, and if there is a good player, at a position of need, all the better. If they hypothetically took the players they have now to camp, I think they would still come up with a solid team. They have two NFL caliber running backs, who they can count on, they have a few guys who look like they could be serviceable on the inside of the OL, and the third wide-out spot has a hyper-talented but unproven sophomore, and a couple low-risk high-reward vets to compete. Obviously more depth is better, and there is still room for improvement, but no matter what postions slick Rick drafts in which slots, I will withhold judgement.

I'm not a huge fan of strictly going with BPA.Having said that,teams have to be careful about "reaching" to fill needs.Overall the draft is a balancing act that is difficult to get right.
This team still needs help with OL depth,WR,and DT. A quality Safety to fit alongside Harry would be nice and can be found in this class.

It is interesting that the past two years,mock drafters have pretty much agreed on what position the Vikings should focus on with their first pick,however this year there is a ton of different predictions ranging from OL,DT,WR,DB and RB.This draft is going to be an interesting one indeed,and if Slick Rick and his crew can get it right,then the team could have a very bright future.If they get it wrong,on the back of last years fiasco,then this team could be screwed and Rick may well be unemployed.

beckmt
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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 9, 2017 20:27:56 GMT -6

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Post by beckmt on Apr 9, 2017 20:27:56 GMT -6

Apr 9, 2017 2:25:43 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Apr 8, 2017 10:56:38 GMT -6 southwest said:

At this point, the Vikes are set up to be able to take the BPA on their board. They will probably be looking at things like culture and scheme, as well as talent, and if there is a good player, at a position of need, all the better. If they hypothetically took the players they have now to camp, I think they would still come up with a solid team. They have two NFL caliber running backs, who they can count on, they have a few guys who look like they could be serviceable on the inside of the OL, and the third wide-out spot has a hyper-talented but unproven sophomore, and a couple low-risk high-reward vets to compete. Obviously more depth is better, and there is still room for improvement, but no matter what postions slick Rick drafts in which slots, I will withhold judgement.

I'm not a huge fan of strictly going with BPA.Having said that,teams have to be careful about "reaching" to fill needs.Overall the draft is a balancing act that is difficult to get right.
This team still needs help with OL depth,WR,and DT. A quality Safety to fit alongside Harry would be nice and can be found in this class.

It is interesting that the past two years,mock drafters have pretty much agreed on what position the Vikings should focus on with their first pick,however this year there is a ton of different predictions ranging from OL,DT,WR,DB and RB.This draft is going to be an interesting one indeed,and if Slick Rick and his crew can get it right,then the team could have a very bright future.If they get it wrong,on the back of last years fiasco,then this team could be screwed and Rick may well be unemployed.

Hope not, but I am betting on the unemployed scenario.

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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 10, 2017 4:34:39 GMT -6

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Apr 10, 2017 4:34:39 GMT -6

The problem as I see it is that BPA is a subjective metric, and I'd add that once you get beyond the first half of the first round, the differences between the guys left are so minor that it's basically a crap shoot.

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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 10, 2017 10:06:11 GMT -6 beckmt likes this

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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 10:06:11 GMT -6

Apr 10, 2017 4:34:39 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said:

The problem as I see it is that BPA is a subjective metric, and I'd add that once you get beyond the first half of the first round, the differences between the guys left are so minor that it's basically a crap shoot.

When looking at BPA you also have to take scheme into consideration. Every player in the NFL is scheme dependent, so you need to draft guys who excel in the areas that are important for your scheme.

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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 16, 2017 18:29:43 GMT -6 Danchat likes this

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Post by Funkytown on Apr 16, 2017 18:29:43 GMT -6

Football Outsiders: 2016 Vikings’ OL Hardest Hit By Injury Since 2000 by Christopher Gates

The Vikings had the third-most games lost to injury in the entire NFL this past season. The Vikings, as a team, had a total of 120.6 Adjusted Games Lost to injury in 2016, and 92.1 of those. . .a little more than three quarters. . .were on the offensive side of the ball. By FO’s calculations, that makes the 2016 Minnesota Vikings’ offense the most injured offense the NFL has seen since the year 2000. The increase that the Vikings saw from the previous year’s offensive AGL (they had 55.6 AGL in 2015) is also the biggest year-to-year increase that FO has recorded since they started tracking these things.

The offensive line was, by far, the hardest-hit unit of the group, and of any unit across the National Football League. Football Outsiders says that the Vikings’ offensive line had 57.2 Adjusted Games Lost in 2016. The next highest team on the list? The Houston Texans with an offensive line AGL of 33.2, slightly over half of Minnesota’s total. Or, to put it another way, the Vikings’ offensive line alone had a greater AGL in 2016 than the entire Vikings’ offense had in 2015.

More at the link: www.dailynorseman.com/2017/4/12/15280754/football-outsiders-2016-vikings-ol-hardest-hit-by-injury-since-2000

Last Edit: Apr 16, 2017 18:30:13 GMT -6 by Funkytown

beckmt
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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 17, 2017 10:39:29 GMT -6

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Post by beckmt on Apr 17, 2017 10:39:29 GMT -6

Apr 16, 2017 18:29:43 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Football Outsiders: 2016 Vikings’ OL Hardest Hit By Injury Since 2000 by Christopher Gates

The Vikings had the third-most games lost to injury in the entire NFL this past season. The Vikings, as a team, had a total of 120.6 Adjusted Games Lost to injury in 2016, and 92.1 of those. . .a little more than three quarters. . .were on the offensive side of the ball. By FO’s calculations, that makes the 2016 Minnesota Vikings’ offense the most injured offense the NFL has seen since the year 2000. The increase that the Vikings saw from the previous year’s offensive AGL (they had 55.6 AGL in 2015) is also the biggest year-to-year increase that FO has recorded since they started tracking these things.

The offensive line was, by far, the hardest-hit unit of the group, and of any unit across the National Football League. Football Outsiders says that the Vikings’ offensive line had 57.2 Adjusted Games Lost in 2016. The next highest team on the list? The Houston Texans with an offensive line AGL of 33.2, slightly over half of Minnesota’s total. Or, to put it another way, the Vikings’ offensive line alone had a greater AGL in 2016 than the entire Vikings’ offense had in 2015.

More at the link: www.dailynorseman.com/2017/4/12/15280754/football-outsiders-2016-vikings-ol-hardest-hit-by-injury-since-2000

This just shows the lack of depth or options the Vikings had. Though OL is not an often injuried position on a regular basis, some of Spielman's draft picks (or lack thereof) can home to roost.

southwest
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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 17, 2017 11:35:44 GMT -6 Danchat likes this

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Post by southwest on Apr 17, 2017 11:35:44 GMT -6

Apr 17, 2017 10:39:29 GMT -6 beckmt said:

Apr 16, 2017 18:29:43 GMT -6 Funkytown said:

Football Outsiders: 2016 Vikings’ OL Hardest Hit By Injury Since 2000 by Christopher Gates

More at the link: www.dailynorseman.com/2017/4/12/15280754/football-outsiders-2016-vikings-ol-hardest-hit-by-injury-since-2000

This just shows the lack of depth or options the Vikings had. Though OL is not an often injuried position on a regular basis, some of Spielman's draft picks (or lack thereof) can home to roost.

To be fair, the thought going in to camp was that you would have Sullivan, Berger, Harris, Boone, Kalil, and Fusco. Even if a couple of those guys were question marks, that isn't an unreasonable amount of depth.

beckmt
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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 17, 2017 21:37:22 GMT -6

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Post by beckmt on Apr 17, 2017 21:37:22 GMT -6

Apr 17, 2017 11:35:44 GMT -6 southwest said:

Apr 17, 2017 10:39:29 GMT -6 beckmt said:

This just shows the lack of depth or options the Vikings had. Though OL is not an often injuried position on a regular basis, some of Spielman's draft picks (or lack thereof) can home to roost.

To be fair, the thought going in to camp was that you would have Sullivan, Berger, Harris, Boone, Kalil, and Fusco. Even if a couple of those guys were question marks, that isn't an unreasonable amount of depth.

Let's see, Sullivan coming off a serious injury, Harris a major question mark, and Bridgewater had a tremendous number of hurries and sacks in 2015. Number was harder to quantify because 2015 Vikings had AP and were more of a running team. This could have been foreseen or at least another body brought in to augment the line. Difficult but not impossible to foresee.

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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 17, 2017 22:02:01 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 22:02:01 GMT -6

Apr 17, 2017 21:37:22 GMT -6 beckmt said:

Apr 17, 2017 11:35:44 GMT -6 southwest said:

To be fair, the thought going in to camp was that you would have Sullivan, Berger, Harris, Boone, Kalil, and Fusco. Even if a couple of those guys were question marks, that isn't an unreasonable amount of depth.

Let's see, Sullivan coming off a serious injury, Harris a major question mark, and Bridgewater had a tremendous number of hurries and sacks in 2015. Number was harder to quantify because 2015 Vikings had AP and were more of a running team. This could have been foreseen or at least another body brought in to augment the line. Difficult but not impossible to foresee.

They also signed Andre Smith and expected at least a couple of the young guys like Kerin, Easton and Sirles to be serviceable back ups if required.These guys then got pressed in to starting roles and had to play a lot more snaps than would be reasonably expected.

beckmt
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How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 19, 2017 4:31:45 GMT -6

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Post by beckmt on Apr 19, 2017 4:31:45 GMT -6

Apr 17, 2017 22:02:01 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Apr 17, 2017 21:37:22 GMT -6 beckmt said:

Let's see, Sullivan coming off a serious injury, Harris a major question mark, and Bridgewater had a tremendous number of hurries and sacks in 2015. Number was harder to quantify because 2015 Vikings had AP and were more of a running team. This could have been foreseen or at least another body brought in to augment the line. Difficult but not impossible to foresee.

They also signed Andre Smith and expected at least a couple of the young guys like Kerin, Easton and Sirles to be serviceable back ups if required.These guys then got pressed in to starting roles and had to play a lot more snaps than would be reasonably expected.

That is the definition of a backup. They are able to function if they have to start. There were more injuries than expected, but some of them were not even close to ready(T. J. Clemmens, Sirles(at tackle), etc). Most of your backups were more projects and not expected to be put in the line of fire for any length of time.

Funkytown Owner Purple Pain Big Dog Posts: 67,672 Likes: 31,597 Fan Since: 1998	How To Fix The O-Line Discussion Apr 24, 2017 13:04:32 GMT -6 Danchat likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Funkytown on Apr 24, 2017 13:04:32 GMT -6 Jake Long retires after 9 seasons:
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