Zimmer Extension Done - through 2023

Cowher
Holmgren
Reid
Vermeil

These guys come to mind for evidence...

What's that evidence for? I'll assume guys who never won a 2nd Super Bowl. Couple things ... you have the benefit of hindsight. If we jumped in our way-back-machine, what would expectations have been immediately after these guys won those Super Bowls? I'll bet they were all pretty high on the odds chart the following year.

Cowher only coached one more year. Holmgren made it to another Super Bowl with a different team. Reid has been to 2 Super Bowls, won his first last year, and is probably odds on favorite of winning another one this year or the near future. Vermeil has been to 2 Super Bowls, with 2 different teams, and retired immediately after winning his first, so we don't know if he would have won a 2nd with the Rams, but without Vermeil, the Rams were heavy favorites to repeat.

13 coaches have won multiple Super Bowls, 20 have only won one, and 350 haven't won any. In other words, you're more likely to win a 2nd than you are a 1st. Zimmer has zero, so having lower expectations of him winning a 1st is reasonable, but if he does beat the odds and win one, having higher expectations of him winning a 2nd would also be reasonable.

I think the expectations for 2020 would be lowered no matter who the coach is the way the roster currently is. If they had fired Zimmer & Spielman, I would expect a new regime to come and tear things down for at the very least 2020, causing for even lower expectations. The real question would be the expectations for 2021-23 for whomever would be in charge.

Do you really think it's impossible for Zimmer to improve as a coach, and because of the failures of the past guarantee the failures of the future? I feel like if you were a Chiefs fan, you'd be demanding Andy Reid to be fired until the moment Mahomes started at QB. Clearly his long legacy of choking in the playoffs and coming up short were evidence that he would never win a super bowl...

As for me, I've become too cynical to have high expectations, really because of the Vikings' long legacy of failure. They could hire Belichick to run operations and I still wouldn't buy that we'd be able to win it all.

I will say that I would have preferred to see Cousins not extended and looked to go QB in the 2020/21 draft... I think this team could be a real threat with Zimmer as HC with a good QB on a rookie deal. 'Cause heck, it's been a while since I saw Seattle as a Super Bowl contender these days even though Russell Wilson is a stud. Cousins is owed $45M in 2023...

Exactly! In the short term, it would be reasonable to have low expectations of a new regime winning a Lombardi, because it's rare, but in the long term, the expectations would be higher over someone like Zimmer because of what we already know about Zimmer. I have higher expectations of a new regime winning a Super Bowl in the next 5 years than I do Zimmer.

Because there's ZERO evidence to suggest Zimmer is now going to accomplish in the next 4 years what he couldn't in the previous 6. Especially when you consider everything that has happened recently. He doesn't quite have to start over, but it almost seems like he does. It doesn't help that we have a QB who has never won anything. Maybe a new regime would have been smart enough to realize that. Zim still seems pretty lost and confused when it comes to the offense. And don't even mention Kubiak because that's my point lol. Why is Zimmer a HEAD coach?

Well I never said impossible, but that's irrelevant, because what I think is based entirely on the evidence. It's an even year, so the evidence suggests the Vikings will be around 8-8 again haha. But no, it basically comes down to this. If you can flip a coin over something, it's useless information. It has no predictive capability.

Zimmer is just as likely to crash and burn these next 4 years as he is to get us to a Super Bowl because there's no evidence things are improving. Do you feel like we've improved as a franchise these past 6 years? He certainly improved things over Frazier, but I mean since then. The Zimmer era has stagnated.

If you think he's capable of improving these next 4, it's based on nothing, so what you're really saying is you hope things improve. We all do, but it doesn't mean anything. If we won the Super Bowl this year, it would shock everyone. And should it after 6 years? Shouldn't we be at that point where we're a yearly contender? We still feel like a typical 9-7 franchise that occasionally has a fluke 12-4 year. In order for it to be reasonable to have high expectations of Zimmer winning a Super Bowl, 12-4 should be the norm by now.

When you have a QB like Mahomes does it matter who the coach is lol? Leslie Frazier would be a Super Bowl winning HC if he had a QB like Peyton Manning.

Lol welcome to the club buddy. That's where I'm at too. The word you're looking for is jaded. I think Zimmer could have a QB like Mahomes and he'd still probably try to have him play it safe. I've studied the numbers and I know having a more aggressive approach on offense is the best strategy, and knowing Zimmer has the exact opposite philosophy, is the main reason why my expectations are low with him winning a Super Bowl.

He just doesn't seem to have that "it" factor. Just look at how the Vikings operate in close games against quality opponents. The very definition of playing it safe. Zimmer is afraid to make a mistake, so his strategy is to wait for the other team to make a mistake, but instead they go out and win the game. To me, it always looks like the Vikings don't know what they want to do in the 4th quarter of a close game. That's why I always criticize them about not knowing how to win, and how they should use a blowout to learn how instead of rolling over.

That only gets me into another complaint about this franchise. How we always wait until we need a QB, to groom a QB lol. We should have kept grooming Sloter and then let Cousins walk after his 3rd year. Instead we cut Sloter, draft Browning, and extend Mr. Mediocrity. Makes no sense at all. This franchise is terrified about taking any chances. The owner down to the waterboy reek of "playing it safe".

I disagree, as I mentioned earlier. Zimmer wouldn't know a good QB if one fell on him in practice. Had we drafted Mahomes, I'm pretty sure he'd be in the same role as Teddy was. A game manager who wasn't asked to do much other than protect the ball, and Mahomes would still be a nobody. That's been the role of every QB we've had since Zimmer took over. The numbers bear that out. And how he handled Sloter tells me everything I need to know lol.

Oh boy, and you keep accusing me of things you have no evidence for lol. Do you even read my posts? Do you suffer from the same problem that @keeniac does? Wait, Keeniac is this you xD? Otherwise, do I need to type slower or something? What narrative am I parsing together that isn't true? Be specific. What's untrue about objective facts? Do you know what objective means? Here's an example ... Zimmer hasn't won a Super Bowl as HC of the Vikings. An objective fact, yes or no?

Huh lol? Are you projecting? Because I think you're the one who is using "delusional" and "low expectations" interchangeably. I was pretty clear about what I meant with both of them.

What lol? Where? Point out the part I changed. I didn't say you should or shouldn't anything, I merely defined the terms of reality. You're the one who is trying to have your cake and eat it too. You can have your high expectations of Zimmer winning a Super Bowl all you want, I only spelled out how irrational such a stance is, objectively. Your high expectations are based on nothing, zero, nada. Hopes and wishes. If you disagree, you're welcome to share with us the evidence that supports your high expectations. I mean you know how expectations work right? They have to be based on something. A pattern, a track record, history, something. You can't just assert them willy nilly and expect anyone to take you seriously. I have high expectations that Teddy will be a Hall of Fame QB someday. See how silly it sounds?

Lol talk about a misrepresentation. When I said, "it's what I do", it's pretty clear I wasn't referring to whatever you're accusing me of. What are you accusing me of anyway? Quote mining? ... "it's what I do" refers to how I split up a block of text point by point so I can respond to each point, so everyone knows exactly what I'm responding to. I didn't change anything you said. If I did, it would be right there for everyone to see, so it would be easy for you to expose me, but here we are, on the 3rd response, and you haven't shown us what I've changed, and I keep daring you to xD.

Projecting again. I'm not spinning anything. You're free to have all the high expectations you want bud, never said you couldn't. I merely pointed out what it means to have high expectations, based on absolutely nothing. It's pretty clear lol.

I'm familiar with all of them, and I already debunked whatever point I assumed you were trying to make with it. And I had to assume, because like with this response here, you're not being very clear about the context. I have no idea what point you're trying to make otherwise.

Wow you missed my whole point again.

How long did each coach before winning a Superbowl? You probably don't want to go down that road. Maybe too much evidence there...wink

I conceded he improved things over Frazier, but have things improved in the Zimmer era? He went 7-9 his first year, 11-5 the next, and it's been up and down since. A stagnation. Having more consistency at QB the past couple of years with a QB that's arguably better on paper than anything else he's had, hasn't helped. After he went 11-5 in 2015, we should have been a consistent 12-4 threat these past 3-4 years.

Well I said nothing about hope, I was referring to high expectations. If you're uncomfortable with the adjective "delusional" lol, pick whatever adjective you want, but the point is, the high expectations are based on nothing. We all hope the Vikings do well, but hope is pretty useless in the grand scheme of things lol. Sometimes I think the "positive" fans believe their hope or positivity has some influence over the results, and some might consider that delu .... oh wait.

You mean even when they find an UDFA who out performs Siemian or Mannion on the field, like Sloter, but they put more value in the 2 scrubs for other reasons like higher draft status, or slightly more experience, over what they see with their own 2 eyes? That just part of what goes into my argumentation of why I don't think Zimmer nor Spielman are capable of delivering a championship. They're too much "by the book" kinda guys, and they don't think outside the box often enough.

We're talking about Zimmer right lol? I think if Zimmer had a QB like that, he'd try to change him. Sloter is that kind of QB, one who can get outside the pocket and improvise, and I think it's the entire reason Zimmer doesn't like him. Another example is Teddy. Teddy was getting outside the pocket often, but instead of trying to make plays or improvise, he'd just throw the ball away. I think that was mostly because Zimmer was in his head. Mahomes wouldn't have been allowed to make plays, he would have been trained to throw the ball away too.

I don't think high volume passing itself is indicative of a more aggressive passing game. 2018 was Cousins lowest avg yards per attempt, and adjusted yards per attempt of his career. 2019 was actually considerably better, but we threw less often. The higher volume of passing in 2018 was due to JDF, partly because we trailed more often, and because Cook missed a large part of the season.

Here's the evidence I produced last year. Doesn't include 2019.