2020 OL

Will
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2020 OL Aug 9, 2020 12:31:43 GMT -6

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Post by Will on Aug 9, 2020 12:31:43 GMT -6

It is good to scrutinize both coaches and players. While some of the pass blocking woes might be scheme or technique related, it is also a problem when a lineman whiffs on a rusher or gets bull-rushed into the QB. Both happened last year. Great pass rushers make even good players look bad, but if a player cannot handle bull-rushes or whiffs too much, they need to be replaced.

If pass blocking technique being taught is obsolete, it is really a coaching problem, and I can't imagine the Vikings would not adopt better techniques. There seems to be agreement that Viking wide zone run scheme and run blocking are good. The NFL is too competitive and the pressure to win is so great that if a guy or a technique is not working, it will be replaced.

Regarding Left Tackle, it sounds like Kubiak is sure Reiff is our Left Tackle this year. Personally, I think O'Neill would be very effective at LT if Reiff got hurt and Cleveland is not ready. Udoh or others are possibilities at RT. Regarding the Guard spots, I just want the Guards and Center to pass protect well against teams with strong DTs.

Great edge rushers will get their sacks, but a good OL can overcome those great individual plays. Good play calls, smart audibles, and extra blockers will all make a difference against guys like Khalil Mack and Zadarius Smith.

Minniman
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2020 OL Aug 10, 2020 0:05:06 GMT -6 Will likes this

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Post by Minniman on Aug 10, 2020 0:05:06 GMT -6

Aug 9, 2020 12:31:43 GMT -6 Will said:

It is good to scrutinize both coaches and players. While some of the pass blocking woes might be scheme or technique related, it is also a problem when a lineman whiffs on a rusher or gets bull-rushed into the QB. Both happened last year. Great pass rushers make even good players look bad, but if a player cannot handle bull-rushes or whiffs too much, they need to be replaced.

That is a valid point, and I have been down on Spielman for his line personnel for almost a decade.

If pass blocking technique being taught is obsolete, it is really a coaching problem, and I can't imagine the Vikings would not adopt better techniques. There seems to be agreement that Viking wide zone run scheme and run blocking are good. The NFL is too competitive and the pressure to win is so great that if a guy or a technique is not working, it will be replaced.

Agreement by whom? When has the Vikings offensive line been feared by NFL defenses?

Regarding Left Tackle, it sounds like Kubiak is sure Reiff is our Left Tackle this year. Personally, I think O'Neill would be very effective at LT if Reiff got hurt and Cleveland is not ready. Udoh or others are possibilities at RT. Regarding the Guard spots, I just want the Guards and Center to pass protect well against teams with strong DTs.

If Reiff is not upgraded, Cousins will likely lead the league in sack/fumbles from blindside hits. Reiff was a know quantity before he ever put on a purple jersey.

Great edge rushers will get their sacks, but a good OL can overcome those great individual plays. Good play calls, smart audibles, and extra blockers will all make a difference against guys like Khalil Mack and Zadarius Smith.

The Vikings have done a terrible job at keeping the back in to block when needed. They don't understand percentages and risk vs reward. A two yard outlet on 3rd and 8 has little chance of making a first down, and it doesn't do much to clear a route either.

Two tight end sets just bunch and confuse the Vikings offensive line. Often, it is better to spread out the defense and give the quarterback, running back, and linemen a better read on the line call.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

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2020 OL Aug 10, 2020 1:38:58 GMT -6 Minniman likes this

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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 1:38:58 GMT -6

Aug 8, 2020 19:56:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

If he were a lock to play the most important position on the Oline next year, shouldn't they get him as much experience there as possible?

Who are the really good LTs around the league who started out learning to play guard in the NFL? An honest question since it has been forever since this team has developed a good starting LT and I don't follow other team's Olineman development.

Mike McGlinchey played his rookie year at RG.
Laremy Tunsil started at LG his rookie year.
They are two I know of,but it is more common for a rookie LT to start at RT his rookie year and then move the following year.The theory around that is the jump from college to NFL is huge,so some teams want to ease guys in rather than throw a rookie to the wolves.

I also think the way college offences work now,with all the quick release plays and mobile QBs,then the quality of OL play is poor,and NFL coaches have less time to work with and develop guys in training camp.

vikingbill
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2020 OL Aug 10, 2020 7:56:57 GMT -6

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Post by vikingbill on Aug 10, 2020 7:56:57 GMT -6

I would think they'd be giving Cleveland reps at LG. I was a bit surprised to hear it was at RG being we seem to have plenty of candidates to compete for that spot but little to no one to push Elflain.

I get the "position flexibility" concept but why mess with a players stance and footwork by putting him on the opposite side where he has been playing the last 4 plus years? esp considering we really don't have many guys whom seem to be able to play LG well. In fact, I can't remember the last time we fielded a good LG. probably Hutchinson.

comet52
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2020 OL Aug 10, 2020 11:03:52 GMT -6 via mobile Minniman likes this

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Post by comet52 on Aug 10, 2020 11:03:52 GMT -6

Aug 10, 2020 7:56:57 GMT -6 vikingbill said:

I would think they'd be giving Cleveland reps at LG. I was a bit surprised to hear it was at RG being we seem to have plenty of candidates to compete for that spot but little to no one to push Elflain.

I get the "position flexibility" concept but why mess with a players stance and footwork by putting him on the opposite side where he has been playing the last 4 plus years? esp considering we really don't have many guys whom seem to be able to play LG well. In fact, I can't remember the last time we fielded a good LG. probably Hutchinson.

They still are making moves based on this "we're so close to a SB" fantasy they have. They have never been close in the Zimmer era--one blowout NFCC loss after a top ten all time NFL lucky win is not close.

Which means letting Cleveland get his feet wet at LT and moving Reiff to LG would be a realistic plan for future success. Not sticking Cleveland at RG and going status quo on the putrid pass pro offered by the left side of the line.

However they just doubled down on a 64 year old coach whose recent quotes are about his urgency to win now before his career ends. Which means the usual short-sighted moves that ultimately go nowhere will likely prevail.

All of which brings the sound of Hank Williams Jr. to my ear...are you ready for some football, some Pat Elflein on roller skates football!?!

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

whoskmoon
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2020 OL Aug 10, 2020 11:53:46 GMT -6 Danchat likes this

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Post by whoskmoon on Aug 10, 2020 11:53:46 GMT -6

Aug 10, 2020 1:38:58 GMT -6 @aussie61 said:

Aug 8, 2020 19:56:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

If he were a lock to play the most important position on the Oline next year, shouldn't they get him as much experience there as possible?

Who are the really good LTs around the league who started out learning to play guard in the NFL? An honest question since it has been forever since this team has developed a good starting LT and I don't follow other team's Olineman development.

Mike McGlinchey played his rookie year at RG.
Laremy Tunsil started at LG his rookie year.
They are two I know of,but it is more common for a rookie LT to start at RT his rookie year and then move the following year.The theory around that is the jump from college to NFL is huge,so some teams want to ease guys in rather than throw a rookie to the wolves.

I also think the way college offences work now,with all the quick release plays and mobile QBs,then the quality of OL play is poor,and NFL coaches have less time to work with and develop guys in training camp.

McGlinchey started at RT but was forced into playing RG against us after the 9ers starting RG went down. It sounds like he spent the entirety of his rookie training camp working at being a RT.

The fact Tunsil played LG his rookie season gives me hope though.

vikingbill
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2020 OL Aug 10, 2020 12:38:10 GMT -6

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Post by vikingbill on Aug 10, 2020 12:38:10 GMT -6

Aug 10, 2020 11:03:52 GMT -6 comet52 said:

Aug 10, 2020 7:56:57 GMT -6 vikingbill said:

I would think they'd be giving Cleveland reps at LG. I was a bit surprised to hear it was at RG being we seem to have plenty of candidates to compete for that spot but little to no one to push Elflain.

I get the "position flexibility" concept but why mess with a players stance and footwork by putting him on the opposite side where he has been playing the last 4 plus years? esp considering we really don't have many guys whom seem to be able to play LG well. In fact, I can't remember the last time we fielded a good LG. probably Hutchinson.

They still are making moves based on this "we're so close to a SB" fantasy they have. They have never been close in the Zimmer era--one blowout NFCC loss after a top ten all time NFL lucky win is not close.

Which means letting Cleveland get his feet wet at LT and moving Reiff to LG would be a realistic plan for future success. Not sticking Cleveland at RG and going status quo on the putrid pass pro offered by the left side of the line.

However they just doubled down on a 64 year old coach whose recent quotes are about his urgency to win now before his career ends. Which means the usual short-sighted moves that ultimately go nowhere will likely prevail.

All of which brings the sound of Hank Williams Jr. to my ear...are you ready for some football, some Pat Elflein on roller skates football!?!

I think having Cleveland take his lumps at LG this season where he can play next to the guy he is going to replace makes a lot more sense than having him play RG.

Unless the plan is to have him play RG permanently and O'Neal to LT, Udoh at RT

I imagine they are just playing musical chairs to see what works. Or shuffling deck chairs on the titanic if you will.

Last Edit: Aug 10, 2020 12:39:10 GMT -6 by vikingbill

Danchat
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2020 OL Aug 10, 2020 17:22:15 GMT -6

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Post by Danchat on Aug 10, 2020 17:22:15 GMT -6

Aug 8, 2020 19:56:22 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Aug 8, 2020 19:48:18 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Yes, it's very common for linemen who are going to be active on gameday as backups to practice at multiple positions. Many times teams only have 7 active linemen in a game, so one guy can play T, the other C, and at least one of them can play G.

Still, if Elflein and Dozier are going to be your starting guards... it might make sense to have Cleveland try to push them. I believe Ezra will be our starting LT in 2021, but if need be they might have to try him at guard just to see if it works.

If he were a lock to play the most important position on the Oline next year, shouldn't they get him as much experience there as possible?

Who are the really good LTs around the league who started out learning to play guard in the NFL? An honest question since it has been forever since this team has developed a good starting LT and I don't follow other team's Olineman development.

That's a fair point... I don't know much about O-line development so you might be right.

Let's see if I can find any LTs who started out playing guard...

MIA LT Laremy Tunsil - played LG his rookie year
CIN LT Andrew Whitworth* - he played LT his rookie year, but moved to LG in years 2 and 3. Weird!

That's all I could find. So it's probably not wise to start Cleveland at RG this year, and I don't think he will. Focusing on LT should be his priority.

Will
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2020 OL Aug 11, 2020 17:13:55 GMT -6

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Post by Will on Aug 11, 2020 17:13:55 GMT -6

Aug 10, 2020 0:05:06 GMT -6 Minniman said:

When has the Vikings offensive line been feared by NFL defenses?

Great question. I'm not sure the line was ever feared, but certainly players, offenses and running backs have been feared. The 1998 Offense was feared. Randy Moss was feared. On the line, my guess is a Vikings O-Lineman has not been feared since Steve Hutchinson left. David Dixon and Korey Stringer were monstrous; were they feared? I'm not sure if defensive linemen ever fear offensive linemen, although a Vikings doctor told me that many defenders "feared" (did not like) getting hit by Adrian Peterson in his prime. He said they did not tackle as hard in the 2nd half of many games. At Center, Matt Birk pancaked linebackers when he got in space; he pancaked Urlacher multiple times over many years, but I doubt Urlacher feared him. Someday, will linebackers, safeties, and corners fear guys like Bradbury or Samia in space?

spence Franchise Player Posts: 3,361 Likes: 970	2020 OL Aug 12, 2020 20:13:54 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by spence on Aug 12, 2020 20:13:54 GMT -6 I stand by my prediction that we have a top-5 OL this year.

Deleted Ghosted Member Posts: 0 Likes:	2020 OL Aug 12, 2020 20:19:24 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2020 20:19:24 GMT -6 Aug 12, 2020 20:13:54 GMT -6 spence said: I stand by my prediction that we have a top-5 OL this year.

Will
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2020 OL Aug 13, 2020 11:50:45 GMT -6

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Post by Will on Aug 13, 2020 11:50:45 GMT -6

Aug 12, 2020 20:13:54 GMT -6 spence said:

I stand by my prediction that we have a top-5 OL this year.

Wow Spence, a Top 5 OL would be amazing; the offense would be the best since 2009. Assuming Reiff and O'Neil at Tackle and Bradbury at Center, who are the Guards on the Top 5 Viking OL? Bradbury and O'Neill could be better at their positions; what about the other guys?

Because of weak interior pass protection, I'm more than a little skeptical that the OL in 2020 will be Top 5 or 10.

beckmt Hall of Fame Inductee Posts: 12,188 Likes: 1,584	2020 OL Aug 13, 2020 12:57:08 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by beckmt on Aug 13, 2020 12:57:08 GMT -6 Unless Bradbury really steps up, interior could be a disaster, and clubs will do to us what we did to NO. Put their best pass rushers in the middle of the line. Or put 4 ends on the line in passing downs.

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2020 OL Aug 13, 2020 15:01:14 GMT -6 vikingbill likes this

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Post by Minniman on Aug 13, 2020 15:01:14 GMT -6

Aug 11, 2020 17:13:55 GMT -6 Will said:

Aug 10, 2020 0:05:06 GMT -6 Minniman said:

When has the Vikings offensive line been feared by NFL defenses?

Great question. I'm not sure the line was ever feared, but certainly players, offenses and running backs have been feared. The 1998 Offense was feared. Randy Moss was feared. On the line, my guess is a Vikings O-Lineman has not been feared since Steve Hutchinson left. David Dixon and Korey Stringer were monstrous; were they feared? I'm not sure if defensive linemen ever fear offensive linemen, although a Vikings doctor told me that many defenders "feared" (did not like) getting hit by Adrian Peterson in his prime. He said they did not tackle as hard in the 2nd half of many games. At Center, Matt Birk pancaked linebackers when he got in space; he pancaked Urlacher multiple times over many years, but I doubt Urlacher feared him. Someday, will linebackers, safeties, and corners fear guys like Bradbury or Samia in space?

Under Dennis Green and Mike Tice, the offensive line was feared.

Under Bud Grant, the offensive line was feared.

It has never been feared on any team Spielman has put on the field.

Watching game film, defenders must be salivating like Pavlov's dog.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

wivikesfan Hall of Fame Inductee Posts: 18,290 Likes: 1,231	2020 OL Aug 14, 2020 17:44:05 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by wivikesfan on Aug 14, 2020 17:44:05 GMT -6 A few things I found interesting... Cleveland swapping evenly 1st team reps at LG with Dozier. Pat getting exclusive reps at RG. I'm hoping Samia and Udoh can push for reps at guard too, I really dont want Pat starting.