Why don't you like Rick?

HarryHits22
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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 14:54:57 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown, diehardtwinsfan, and 1 more like this

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Post by HarryHits22 on Dec 10, 2019 14:54:57 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 14:38:23 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 10, 2019 14:08:54 GMT -6 HarryHits22 said:

Pressures, sacks, run game efficiency, overall offensive numbers. Even the analytics have our Oline ranked highly

I’m confused where you think the production of this offence is coming from? You give credit to the oline and blocking scheme when discussing Cook’s production, you’ve given them credit in the past for keeping Cousins clean. And yet when we discuss the production of the line itself, you refuse to give them the same credit? It just seems to me like you’re deflecting credit away at all costs to avoid admitting Rick has done a nice job putting the pieces together in this offence. Whether it’s coaching, talent or some combination of the two, Spielman’s found a good balance to field a productive offence

what do you want me to say?

After 8 seasons... FINALLY ONE season of pretty good offensive production? Not top 5, mind you, but pretty good... average to slightly above average... with the caveat that when the game is on the line, they've consistently struggled even this season to win it/put it away

sorry..... it's a little hard to give too much praise after so many years of terrible offensive play..... and for the record, I still don't trust our offense.... I still trust our defense way more than the offense....

the one really truly great move made was hiring Kubiak and his crew. That deserves a helluva lot of praise. Who deserves praise for that? Zimmer or Spielgod?

Look I’m not saying you have praise Spielman as the saviour. I’m just saying give credit where credit is due. You want to criticize him for his handling of the offensive line in years passed, or the QB position or the offence in general, be my guest. I have been critical myself of his failure to put the pieces together on the oline.

But all off season we discussed that it was important that he fix the oline, and he’s done that. That really all I’m saying, give him credit for putting those pieces together this year.

Zimmer was hired by Spielman, and his responsibilities are delegated by Spielman. It’s Rick’s job to make the right decisions for the organization, if that means leaving Zimmer in charge of hiring coaches, then I don’t see the point in assigning credit to one or the other.

Last Edit: Dec 10, 2019 14:59:41 GMT -6 by HarryHits22

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 14:55:19 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 14:55:19 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 14:45:19 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 10, 2019 14:17:57 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

Yes, dodging. This time you dodged by asking a loaded question, but I'll answer both of these anyway. First, yes, I'd trade away 10 years for a SB as well. That does not, however, tell us about the quality of the GM. To have an all-time great at QB and only deliver once is an indictment of that GM, not an endorsement IMO. As a fan I take it, but as an evaluator of the GM I'm not happy.

To your last question, the answer is Mike Brown. However, aren't you the poster that criticizes those that minimize the job of the GM to drafting? Isn't playoff wins an even less robust measurement of their total job? I put no such restrictions on you to answer my question, perhaps you should truly consider it.

I'm not dodging. I clearly told you I don't want to waste my time digging through the rap sheet of each GM. Not worth my time to review every GMs coaching hires/drafts/free agency/trades/etc, and I'll said it again.... I'm almost certain if I did, I'd find strong evidence to support my view.... contrary to what you're suggesting (the opposite).

btw.... since we are just getting into these discussion. FYI I weigh playoff wins/a Superbowl trophy more than your average fan. You can't win the trophy without playoff wins. That's when the real season starts IMO. When you play good teams with all the pressure on your shoulders.... and Spielgod/Zimmer have a lot of ground to make up here.....

I asked for 10 GMs who have failed to win more than 1 playoff win in 8 seasons. You gave me one. Mike Brown (which is true). That's the company your boy Spielgod is in.... consider that.....

You are dodging and your next sentence sorta shows why. You've drawn your conclusion and what I've done is pose a dilemma that calls that conclusion into question. So a couple things on that - if you go looking only for what you want you will likely find it. But if that's how you draw conclusions, there isn't much merit to your conclusions.

I answered your question honestly because I'm not afraid to do that. I'm not afraid to look it up and truly weigh the pros and cons. Yes, Spielman's company on that is not good. However, I would point out, most GMs don't even get 8 years. Good or bad, he couldn't have had much company in that regard. Here's the thing - you could answer my question, see that he is Top 10 (or at least, in that discussion) and still reach your conclusion to remove him. That you refuse to consider such an alternative perspective is damning or your credibility on the matter. Your stance seems more emotional and selfish than rational. Maybe you're ok with that, if so, that's fine....but not terribly convincing either.

diehardtwinsfan
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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 14:58:35 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Dec 10, 2019 14:58:35 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 13:02:36 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 10, 2019 12:55:07 GMT -6 HarryHits22 said:

Until this year.....

really? where do you rank our OL this year? I have them as average as can be (overall, combined pass/rush)

I give them props for the big improvement in the run blocking.... but with the caveat that I think it's mostly Kubiak/Dennison and the scheme.....

The OL went from historically bad to average as can be in a year...

Look, I'm not on either side of this debate as of now, and I'm not going to argue with you that he didn't do enough to fix it, but when he did, it improved... a lot. I get that you don't like the guy, but this strikes me as a quibble presently. No GM is going to do a perfect job. But I can tell you this.. I want one that can identify talent when that's what is needed to fix something.

Deleted Ghosted Member Posts: 0 Likes:	Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:01:18 GMT -6 Funkytown and NoresemanSam like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 15:01:18 GMT -6 By several metrics our line is above average. I don't think people realize how bad line-play is across the league.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:10:33 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 15:10:33 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 14:55:19 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

Dec 10, 2019 14:45:19 GMT -6 BosViking said:

I'm not dodging. I clearly told you I don't want to waste my time digging through the rap sheet of each GM. Not worth my time to review every GMs coaching hires/drafts/free agency/trades/etc, and I'll said it again.... I'm almost certain if I did, I'd find strong evidence to support my view.... contrary to what you're suggesting (the opposite).

btw.... since we are just getting into these discussion. FYI I weigh playoff wins/a Superbowl trophy more than your average fan. You can't win the trophy without playoff wins. That's when the real season starts IMO. When you play good teams with all the pressure on your shoulders.... and Spielgod/Zimmer have a lot of ground to make up here.....

I asked for 10 GMs who have failed to win more than 1 playoff win in 8 seasons. You gave me one. Mike Brown (which is true). That's the company your boy Spielgod is in.... consider that.....

You are dodging and your next sentence sorta shows why. You've drawn your conclusion and what I've done is pose a dilemma that calls that conclusion into question. So a couple things on that - if you go looking only for what you want you will likely find it. But if that's how you draw conclusions, there isn't much merit to your conclusions.

I answered your question honestly because I'm not afraid to do that. I'm not afraid to look it up and truly weigh the pros and cons. Yes, Spielman's company on that is not good. However, I would point out, most GMs don't even get 8 years. Good or bad, he couldn't have had much company in that regard. Here's the thing - you could answer my question, see that he is Top 10 (or at least, in that discussion) and still reach your conclusion to remove him. That you refuse to consider such an alternative perspective is damning or your credibility on the matter. Your stance seems more emotional and selfish than rational. Maybe you're ok with that, if so, that's fine....but not terribly convincing either.

I'm actually not opposed to considering alternative perspectives. Not sure where you got that from. But if you're willing to do the legwork, and do all the gritty research and present it on this board.... please do.... I'd love to read a cliff notes version..... and we can discuss accordingly.....

diehardtwinsfan
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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:12:05 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Dec 10, 2019 15:12:05 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 14:01:57 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 10, 2019 13:59:49 GMT -6 @keeniac said:

If your solution is to eliminate every college prospect who's had surgery I've got news for you friend. You're going to eliminate a ton of talented people from the list. Tua is certainly off your list huh? Joe Burrow too. He had surgery on his throwing hand already.

here we go.... backpedaling now......

Spielgod gambled, and lost bigly.... hold him accountable... oh wait, you refuse.....

by that standard you'll be holding every GM accountable because they all make mistakes. It's vague and incredibly subjective.

If you want to have a rational discussion as to why Spielman should go, I'm all ears listening to it... I'm fairly certain that there are some problems that need to be addressed on this team (I'm leaning more and more towards Zimmer for the record), and I'm quite willing to let you convince me that Spielman is the problem.

But these statements do nothing to add to a rational discussion. Anyone in that role is going to have their busts. Period. Do his picks bust more than others? That's a rational case. Is he unable to find talent lower in the draft and through FA or finding it at lower rates than other teams? That's a rational case. Are his players more consistently injured than his peers? That's a case. Has the team, under his watch, shown an inability to develop players more so than other teams? That's a case. But those cases need to be made with more than yes or no statements. These are measurable. Show your work.

But to the point @keeniac was making, a lot of talented college players had surgery in college... or even high school. That's the nature of the game. So what's your criteria there? I don't think "he should have known" is reasonable. That's a very vague standard that you can apply when it's convenient and ignore at your own convenience as well.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:13:49 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 15:13:49 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 15:10:33 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 10, 2019 14:55:19 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

You are dodging and your next sentence sorta shows why. You've drawn your conclusion and what I've done is pose a dilemma that calls that conclusion into question. So a couple things on that - if you go looking only for what you want you will likely find it. But if that's how you draw conclusions, there isn't much merit to your conclusions.

I answered your question honestly because I'm not afraid to do that. I'm not afraid to look it up and truly weigh the pros and cons. Yes, Spielman's company on that is not good. However, I would point out, most GMs don't even get 8 years. Good or bad, he couldn't have had much company in that regard. Here's the thing - you could answer my question, see that he is Top 10 (or at least, in that discussion) and still reach your conclusion to remove him. That you refuse to consider such an alternative perspective is damning or your credibility on the matter. Your stance seems more emotional and selfish than rational. Maybe you're ok with that, if so, that's fine....but not terribly convincing either.

I'm actually not opposed to considering alternative perspectives. Not sure where you got that from. But if you're willing to do the legwork, and do all the gritty research and present it on this board.... please do.... I'd love to read a cliff notes version..... and we can discuss accordingly.....

I already showed some casual work and you ran from the discussion. As others are pointing out, you sorta buckle and run as soon as someone presses you. I'm not sure why I'd do some extensive thing on your behalf when you evidently have no interest in a fair discussion.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:15:32 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 15:15:32 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 14:54:57 GMT -6 HarryHits22 said:

Dec 10, 2019 14:38:23 GMT -6 BosViking said:

what do you want me to say?

After 8 seasons... FINALLY ONE season of pretty good offensive production? Not top 5, mind you, but pretty good... average to slightly above average... with the caveat that when the game is on the line, they've consistently struggled even this season to win it/put it away

sorry..... it's a little hard to give too much praise after so many years of terrible offensive play..... and for the record, I still don't trust our offense.... I still trust our defense way more than the offense....

the one really truly great move made was hiring Kubiak and his crew. That deserves a helluva lot of praise. Who deserves praise for that? Zimmer or Spielgod?

Look I’m not saying you have praise Spielman as the saviour. I’m just saying give credit where credit is due. You want to criticize him for his handling of the offensive line in years passed, or the QB position or the offence in general, be my guest. I have been critical myself of his failure to put the pieces together on the oline.

But all off season we discussed that it was important that he fix the oline, and he’s done that. That really all I’m saying, give him credit for putting those pieces together this year.

Zimmer was hired by Spielman, and his responsibilities are delegated by Spielman. It’s Rick’s job to make the right decisions for the organization, if that means leaving Zimmer in charge of hiring coaches, then I don’t see the point in assigning credit to one or the other.

That's fair.... they did make a big jump, even if they had nowhere to go but up..... I just refuse to believe it's due to personnel on the OL. They simply haven't impressed me talent wise.... although I commend them for their effort this season. They're fighting their ass off, and I respect that. Reiff especially stood out to me in this regard. He's simply not talented enough (IMO), but his workrate should be complimented this season.

Also agree that ultimately it all trickles down from Spielgod, so they both get praise/criticism for any assistant coach hires. Although I also believe there are varying degrees. For example, there is no way Zimmer would've been the one to suggest pass-happy inexperienced Flip as his OC hire... that was definitely heavily a Spielgod influence hire IMO. Zimmer is way too old school and conservative, and they didn't fit together AT ALL... as we all found out. But yes, I give Spielgod and Zimmer full credit for the Kubiak hire regardless. That is one big move there that trumps all the other improvements IMO. Without Kubiak, Cook/OL look way worse this season. Kirk too, for that matter.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:23:07 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 15:23:07 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 15:13:49 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

Dec 10, 2019 15:10:33 GMT -6 BosViking said:

I'm actually not opposed to considering alternative perspectives. Not sure where you got that from. But if you're willing to do the legwork, and do all the gritty research and present it on this board.... please do.... I'd love to read a cliff notes version..... and we can discuss accordingly.....

I already showed some casual work and you ran from the discussion. As others are pointing out, you sorta buckle and run as soon as someone presses you. I'm not sure why I'd do some extensive thing on your behalf when you evidently have no interest in a fair discussion.

no buckles here.... I'm reading and ready to discuss.....

ultimately, it's an opinion... there is no exact science how to measure the success of a GM. My belief is that playoff wins (and building a team which is a legit Superbowl contender, instead of pretender) is one of the key ways to judge a GM's success.

My biggest issues, beyond that, is the lack of putting pieces together.

speaking of dodging.... why haven't you guys provided counter arguments to the one example I provided which I think best shows Spielgod's inability to piece together a cohesive unit:

Philosophy/scheme: Norv's vertical pass game

OL: terrible (at the time) at pass protection

QB: Teddy (weakness: deep passes)

WR: Wallace: trade a 5th + pay him $11mil for 1 yr rental

formation issue: AP-i formation Teddy-shotgun

mix it all together...

6 Starter Posts: 599 Likes: 66	Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:36:53 GMT -6 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by 6 on Dec 10, 2019 15:36:53 GMT -6 You are not competitive year in year out. That alone is justification to question spielman and zimmer.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:39:26 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 15:39:26 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 15:36:53 GMT -6 6 said:

You are not competitive year in year out. That alone is justification to question spielman and zimmer.

depends how you define competitive.

I like to look at it as "is your team a legit superbowl contender?"

Quite honestly... I'm hard pressed to give them even one season their team has been a legit Superbowl contender.... but I'll still give them one year nonetheless out of leniency.... and that's the Case Keenum year.... where we got embarrassed and exposed in the NFCCG

so 1 year in 8 seasons. I'm not impressed. Something is missing.

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 15:46:17 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by 6 on Dec 10, 2019 15:46:17 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 15:39:26 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 10, 2019 15:36:53 GMT -6 6 said:

You are not competitive year in year out. That alone is justification to question spielman and zimmer.

depends how you define competitive.

I like to look at it as "is your team a legit superbowl contender?"

Quite honestly... I'm hard pressed to give them even one season their team has been a legit Superbowl contender.... but I'll still give them one year nonetheless out of leniency.... and that's the Case Keenum year.... where we got embarrassed and exposed in the NFCCG

so 1 year in 8 seasons. I'm not impressed. Something is missing.

that is really all this is about. 2009 is the most legit run we had since our last sb. Anybody who argues 2017? Case keenum!

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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 16:09:13 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 16:09:13 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 15:23:07 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 10, 2019 15:13:49 GMT -6 @theleviathan said:

I already showed some casual work and you ran from the discussion. As others are pointing out, you sorta buckle and run as soon as someone presses you. I'm not sure why I'd do some extensive thing on your behalf when you evidently have no interest in a fair discussion.

no buckles here.... I'm reading and ready to discuss.....

ultimately, it's an opinion... there is no exact science how to measure the success of a GM. My belief is that playoff wins (and building a team which is a legit Superbowl contender, instead of pretender) is one of the key ways to judge a GM's success.

My biggest issues, beyond that, is the lack of putting pieces together.

speaking of dodging.... why haven't you guys provided counter arguments to the one example I provided which I think best shows Spielgod's inability to piece together a cohesive unit:

Philosophy/scheme: Norv's vertical pass game

OL: terrible (at the time) at pass protection

QB: Teddy (weakness: deep passes)

WR: Wallace: trade a 5th + pay him $11mil for 1 yr rental

formation issue: AP-i formation Teddy-shotgun

mix it all together...

I agree it's opinion, but that's why I pressed you to compare him to his peers. Your opinion should have some context to it. He's by no means elite, he hasn't delivered a Super Bowl and our playoff success has been far too infrequent. I am not going to counter your argument above because I don't disagree. Norv Turner did not fit our personnel. To his credit, however, he DID bring all the right personnel together on offense this year. The pieces signed, drafted, and coaches brought in have all led to a really good offense.

Now he can't put that together with a defense.....but striking a magic formula like that is really difficult. That's why, even in the last 20 years, so few times have managed to find it.

As I said in the other thread, there are plenty of things to criticize and credit for him. Ultimately, few teams have been as successful at cultivating a roster as the Vikings have under Spielman. I'm at the point where I think he deserves one more year with this offense and one more year with Zimmer running the defense to see if we can make this happen. The offense is perfectly tailored to our current talents. Zimmer has had all the capital invested in his defense he could possibly ask for. They get one more year to put it together for me and then I'm out.

I do feel like it may be hard to find a better GM though. The vast majority of the league would love to have farmed talents like Diggs, Thielen, Ham, O'Neill, Griffin, Hunter, and Harris out of the capital we used to acquire them.

vikingpitbull
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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 16:42:45 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by vikingpitbull on Dec 10, 2019 16:42:45 GMT -6

Well here is a list of GMs
Belichick
Roseman
Colbert
Snead
Ballard
Reid
Schneider
Loomis
Lynch
Beane
Mayock
Gutekunst

A couple extra just in case strawman doesn't like them.

Now tell me 55 reasons to keep Spielman..

HarryHits22
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Why don't you like Rick? Dec 10, 2019 16:46:50 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown and NoresemanSam like this

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Post by HarryHits22 on Dec 10, 2019 16:46:50 GMT -6

Dec 10, 2019 16:42:45 GMT -6 vikingpitbull said:

Well here is a list of GMs
Belichick
Roseman
Colbert
Snead
Ballard
Reid
Schneider
Loomis
Lynch
Beane
Mayock
Gutekunst

A couple extra just in case strawman doesn't like them.

Now tell me 55 reasons to keep Spielman..

Lmao what?