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Raptorman
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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 9:49:11 GMT -6

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Post by Raptorman on Jan 31, 2020 9:49:11 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 9:01:15 GMT -6 comet52 said:

The contract is just misdirection when brought up in arguments about his on field performance.

It was market rate or even a little below based on the Jets offer. Most contracts for high priced QBs are 3 years guaranteed and then a couple option years.

The difference here is no option years. So if Kirk killed it he could go seek another big payday. Conversely if the Vikings want to cut ties they don't have to swallow alot of dead money.

Keenum was just one of those guys who had his one great year in life, then reverted to form. He would have reverted to form with us also.

No, no, no. It's all about the guarantee and not being able to cut him because of it. But lets look at two contracts.

Cousins. Cut after the first year, $60 mil cap hit. After the Second year $31 million.

Staffords. 5 year $135 million. $50 at signing, $92 guaranteed. Cut him after the first year, $74 mil dead cap. Second year cut, $55 mil dead cap. After the 3rd year $32 million. But there is an out after year 4. Only it cost $19 million in dead cap and he won't even be on the team.

But that is supposedly a better deal for the team than Cousins contract. That is what people are arguing when it comes to Cousins contract.

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 9:51:47 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown, comet52, and 1 more like this

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Post by VikingsBoss on Jan 31, 2020 9:51:47 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 8:28:35 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

Jan 31, 2020 6:37:48 GMT -6 slapnut19 said:

I never understood the hangup some have had with cousins contract being fully guaranteed. His per year average is and has been in line with other top ten qbs. Some of you equate expectations with salary and will argue it endlessly. Here are things that cant be argued. Cousins led us to the playoffs and won a road playoff game. Does that mean he has earned another contract with the team? At this point im still not sure but im willing to bet the team has already made that decision.

I didn't and still don't like it because it gives us zero flexibility. We are locked in for 3 years no matter what. We can't trade him, we can't cut him, can't do anything with him. In the NFL with injuries and year by year up and down play, it's just not smart to not give yourself flexibility to make a change. Especially with how small windows of talent are in the NFL.

What move did the Vikings not make because they had no flexibility due to Cousins'contract? $84 million over 3 seasons probably gave the Vikings a lot more flexibility than teams that will be paying huge money or eating big cap hits to aging QBs five or six years from now...Aaron Rodgers cap hit in 2023 is $28+ million, in his age 39 season for a guy who is pretty obviously on the downside of his career.

The Vikings lack of flexibility has more to due with huge deals handed out to Harrison Smith, Linval Joseph, Adam Thielen, Xavier Rhodes, Anthony Barr and others. Part of it is the price of being good in the NFL and the cost of keeping your talent-part of it was also not realizing how precipitously some of those guys may fall off during their deal (Rhodes and Joseph)-and yet another part of it was not using a player in a manner which could justify what you pay him (Barr). The Vikings got close with this group, but didn't make it to the mountaintop...so now, tough choices have to be made.

Regardless, whomever the Vikings had chosen after 2017 to be their QB wasn't going to be cheap-or was going to come with huge questions. Questions that Case Keenum didn't answer particularly well and Teddy Bridgewater has barely answered at all. I don't see how it would have been better to give Keenum the 2 year/$36 he got from Denver that he didn't live up to...or to give Bridgewater the 10-15 it probably would have taken to keep him as your starter (especially given what he showed in his limited playing time in 2018) over getting Cousins-who was the consensus best choice on the market.

The Cardinals have knocked the Vikings out of the playoffs! NO!-Paul Allen, December 28th, 2003

Raptorman
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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 9:52:02 GMT -6 NoresemanSam likes this

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Post by Raptorman on Jan 31, 2020 9:52:02 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 9:44:58 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jan 31, 2020 9:26:14 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

It may be because just saying "there is always a better option than X", but never identifying who that better option is makes it impossible for you to be proven wrong.

If Kyle Sloter ever so much as takes a snap next year, I have been proven wrong because I said (and meant) it won't happen. Does my saying it make it any more or less likely? No. But, it puts me on record and allows people to have some record of reliability when it comes to my opinion.

When you spout off that this X and that Y are better than this A and that B, but never identify what X and Y are? Well, you can't prove an unknown any more than you can prove a dispositive, so why would anyone place any stock in what you are saying.

That is complete and utter bullsh*t. It does not matter if I am right or wrong about who the Vikings pick at QB. All that matters is if Viking management is right or wrong.

All you and raptor are doing is deflecting, because you know Cousins isn't the key to winning a SB and don't want to defend the position of wanting to extend a QB who doesn't help us win it all.

Case Keenum and 26 million extra in cap makes this team better next year. Andy Dalton and 20 million in cap does as well. Not because those guys are better QBs than Cousins, they absolutely are not, but they both are capable of winning with a great run game and a top 5 defense, which we are more likely to have with that extra cap. Anything short of that and they are .500 and below QBs. Sound familiar?

How did Case make Denver better? Washington? After all, he wasn't getting the big bucks in those two places. What moves did those teams make to improve with the money they saved on Case?

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 11:47:50 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2020 11:47:50 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 9:52:02 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Jan 31, 2020 9:44:58 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

That is complete and utter bullsh*t. It does not matter if I am right or wrong about who the Vikings pick at QB. All that matters is if Viking management is right or wrong.

All you and raptor are doing is deflecting, because you know Cousins isn't the key to winning a SB and don't want to defend the position of wanting to extend a QB who doesn't help us win it all.

Case Keenum and 26 million extra in cap makes this team better next year. Andy Dalton and 20 million in cap does as well. Not because those guys are better QBs than Cousins, they absolutely are not, but they both are capable of winning with a great run game and a top 5 defense, which we are more likely to have with that extra cap. Anything short of that and they are .500 and below QBs. Sound familiar?

How did Case make Denver better? Washington? After all, he wasn't getting the big bucks in those two places. What moves did those teams make to improve with the money they saved on Case?

Case doesn't make any team better. Neither does Dalton.

Case + the players signed for the extra 26 million we wouldn't be paying Cousins would make the team better. Same with Dalton. We could keep everyone worth keeping AND improve on the Oline, in the secondary and on the D-line. Byron Jones and Mack as your starting CB's. Replace Joseph with Billings at DT. Sign Conklin and Thuney to replace Reiff (with ONeil moving to LT) and Elf. That is a much improved defense and offense right there. Case and Dalton have won as much as Cousins has ever won with less than that.

Denver and Washington are terrible teams outside of the QB position. They aren't a couple of players away from being a great team, they are/were a couple of seasons away.

This is YOUR argument Raptorman. Having a better team versus having a better QB gets us closer to a SB, right?

ozzvic
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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 11:53:46 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown and NoresemanSam like this

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Post by ozzvic on Jan 31, 2020 11:53:46 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 7:54:30 GMT -6 huthuthike said:

Jan 31, 2020 7:45:08 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Both went 1-1 in the playoffs but let's look at Cousins the last 2 years vs Keenum the last two years. Cousins has won some big games while Case has continued to lose games over & over. I get Keenum had a big year with us but when you look at his career before '17 & after '17 you see that Keenum is really just a good #2 that excelled in Shurmur's offense.

There are a lot of contributing factors to that statement. You also can look at it and say that Case had a opportunity with a team that had some talent and brought them to the NFC title game. Kirk hasn't. Case was also not brought in here to be the missing piece. Kirk was.

Without googling it, name the skins WR's and TE's. Nobody can. In no way am I saying Case was the long term answer at the position but he did make the most out of his opportunity with the Vikes. Has Kirk?

You mean the Redskin WRs & TEs that Cousins had 30+ tds & 4,000 yards with?

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 11:59:00 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2020 11:59:00 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 9:51:47 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Jan 31, 2020 8:28:35 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

I didn't and still don't like it because it gives us zero flexibility. We are locked in for 3 years no matter what. We can't trade him, we can't cut him, can't do anything with him. In the NFL with injuries and year by year up and down play, it's just not smart to not give yourself flexibility to make a change. Especially with how small windows of talent are in the NFL.

What move did the Vikings not make because they had no flexibility due to Cousins'contract? $84 million over 3 seasons probably gave the Vikings a lot more flexibility than teams that will be paying huge money or eating big cap hits to aging QBs five or six years from now...Aaron Rodgers cap hit in 2023 is $28+ million, in his age 39 season for a guy who is pretty obviously on the downside of his career.

The Vikings lack of flexibility has more to due with huge deals handed out to Harrison Smith, Linval Joseph, Adam Thielen, Xavier Rhodes, Anthony Barr and others. Part of it is the price of being good in the NFL and the cost of keeping your talent-part of it was also not realizing how precipitously some of those guys may fall off during their deal (Rhodes and Joseph)-and yet another part of it was not using a player in a manner which could justify what you pay him (Barr). The Vikings got close with this group, but didn't make it to the mountaintop...so now, tough choices have to be made.

Regardless, whomever the Vikings had chosen after 2017 to be their QB wasn't going to be cheap-or was going to come with huge questions. Questions that Case Keenum didn't answer particularly well and Teddy Bridgewater has barely answered at all. I don't see how it would have been better to give Keenum the 2 year/$36 he got from Denver that he didn't live up to...or to give Bridgewater the 10-15 it probably would have taken to keep him as your starter (especially given what he showed in his limited playing time in 2018) over getting Cousins-who was the consensus best choice on the market.

Rodgers cap hit in year 2023 is 28 million if, and only if they Packers want to pay him 28 million. That is the ultimate flexibility. Pay him what will probably not even be top 15 money in 2023, or cut him and move on. One is a great option if Rodgers is playing well, the other is a great option if he isn't.

With Cousins, if he is really worth extending, you are faced with paying him top money once again and even then he might decide to move on to another team. As I have said, the 3 year fully guaranteed deal is only better if Cousins wasn't worth the contract in the first place. Is that what you are arguing? If so I agree.

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 12:00:35 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2020 12:00:35 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 11:53:46 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Jan 31, 2020 7:54:30 GMT -6 huthuthike said:

There are a lot of contributing factors to that statement. You also can look at it and say that Case had a opportunity with a team that had some talent and brought them to the NFC title game. Kirk hasn't. Case was also not brought in here to be the missing piece. Kirk was.

Without googling it, name the skins WR's and TE's. Nobody can. In no way am I saying Case was the long term answer at the position but he did make the most out of his opportunity with the Vikes. Has Kirk?

You mean the Redskin WRs & TEs that Cousins had 30+ tds & 4,000 yards with?

Which ones are those?

How many playoff wins in 3 season with the Skins for Cousins versus one season with Case?

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 12:01:58 GMT -6 via mobile NoresemanSam likes this

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Post by ozzvic on Jan 31, 2020 12:01:58 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 11:47:50 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jan 31, 2020 9:52:02 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

How did Case make Denver better? Washington? After all, he wasn't getting the big bucks in those two places. What moves did those teams make to improve with the money they saved on Case?

Case doesn't make any team better. Neither does Dalton.

Case + the players signed for the extra 26 million we wouldn't be paying Cousins would make the team better. Same with Dalton. We could keep everyone worth keeping AND improve on the Oline, in the secondary and on the D-line. Byron Jones and Mack as your starting CB's. Replace Joseph with Billings at DT. Sign Conklin and Thuney to replace Reiff (with ONeil moving to LT) and Elf. That is a much improved defense and offense right there. Case and Dalton have won as much as Cousins has ever won with less than that.

Denver and Washington are terrible teams outside of the QB position. They aren't a couple of players away from being a great team, they are/were a couple of seasons away.

This is YOUR argument Raptorman. Having a better team versus having a better QB gets us closer to a SB, right?

In 2018, Keenum signed a two-year $36 million contract with the Denver Broncos, playing for them for one season before being traded to the Redskins in 2019.

Cousins got around 10 million more this year so its not like we would've had money to bring in 3 all stars with that extra money. Maybe we could've gotten a better gaurd or DT but its not like we could've signed a bunch of game changers. I dont know why everyone thinks O'Neil can just switch to LT without a problem, maybe instead of playing musical chairs with the oline we actually go out and draft a guy who is a LT

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 12:04:12 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by ozzvic on Jan 31, 2020 12:04:12 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 12:00:35 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jan 31, 2020 11:53:46 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

You mean the Redskin WRs & TEs that Cousins had 30+ tds & 4,000 yards with?

Which ones are those?

How many playoff wins in 3 season with the Skins for Cousins versus one season with Case?

Cousins definitely played better vs the saints then Case did. Cousins made two key throws at the end & Case benefitted from a missed tackle.

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 12:04:27 GMT -6

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Post by specialk28 on Jan 31, 2020 12:04:27 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 9:51:47 GMT -6 VikingsBoss said:

Jan 31, 2020 8:28:35 GMT -6 specialk28 said:

I didn't and still don't like it because it gives us zero flexibility. We are locked in for 3 years no matter what. We can't trade him, we can't cut him, can't do anything with him. In the NFL with injuries and year by year up and down play, it's just not smart to not give yourself flexibility to make a change. Especially with how small windows of talent are in the NFL.

What move did the Vikings not make because they had no flexibility due to Cousins'contract? $84 million over 3 seasons probably gave the Vikings a lot more flexibility than teams that will be paying huge money or eating big cap hits to aging QBs five or six years from now...Aaron Rodgers cap hit in 2023 is $28+ million, in his age 39 season for a guy who is pretty obviously on the downside of his career.

The Vikings lack of flexibility has more to due with huge deals handed out to Harrison Smith, Linval Joseph, Adam Thielen, Xavier Rhodes, Anthony Barr and others. Part of it is the price of being good in the NFL and the cost of keeping your talent-part of it was also not realizing how precipitously some of those guys may fall off during their deal (Rhodes and Joseph)-and yet another part of it was not using a player in a manner which could justify what you pay him (Barr). The Vikings got close with this group, but didn't make it to the mountaintop...so now, tough choices have to be made.

Regardless, whomever the Vikings had chosen after 2017 to be their QB wasn't going to be cheap-or was going to come with huge questions. Questions that Case Keenum didn't answer particularly well and Teddy Bridgewater has barely answered at all. I don't see how it would have been better to give Keenum the 2 year/$36 he got from Denver that he didn't live up to...or to give Bridgewater the 10-15 it probably would have taken to keep him as your starter (especially given what he showed in his limited playing time in 2018) over getting Cousins-who was the consensus best choice on the market.

What does that matter? How would anyone know what the opportunity cost of signing Cousins would be? Total red herring argument.

I'm not talking about the lack of flexibility managing the cap, which you seem to be pointing out. We have flexibility with the cap, we can cut players to free up cap space. That's the opposite of the flexibility we have with Cousins because we can't cut him, trade him or do anything with him. We just get to watch an average to above average QB waste a bunch of talent on this roster for another season. Or worse if they extend him.

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 12:49:05 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2020 12:49:05 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 12:01:58 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Jan 31, 2020 11:47:50 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Case doesn't make any team better. Neither does Dalton.

Case + the players signed for the extra 26 million we wouldn't be paying Cousins would make the team better. Same with Dalton. We could keep everyone worth keeping AND improve on the Oline, in the secondary and on the D-line. Byron Jones and Mack as your starting CB's. Replace Joseph with Billings at DT. Sign Conklin and Thuney to replace Reiff (with ONeil moving to LT) and Elf. That is a much improved defense and offense right there. Case and Dalton have won as much as Cousins has ever won with less than that.

Denver and Washington are terrible teams outside of the QB position. They aren't a couple of players away from being a great team, they are/were a couple of seasons away.

This is YOUR argument Raptorman. Having a better team versus having a better QB gets us closer to a SB, right?

In 2018, Keenum signed a two-year $36 million contract with the Denver Broncos, playing for them for one season before being traded to the Redskins in 2019.

Cousins got around 10 million more this year so its not like we would've had money to bring in 3 all stars with that extra money. Maybe we could've gotten a better gaurd or DT but its not like we could've signed a bunch of game changers. I dont know why everyone thinks O'Neil can just switch to LT without a problem, maybe instead of playing musical chairs with the oline we actually go out and draft a guy who is a LT

I am talking about a hypothetical trade of Cousins and his contract and 4 million dollar signing of Case this coming season.

Addressing the line through the draft would be ideal, yes. Do you have any faith that Rick will actually do that?

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 12:57:19 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Jan 31, 2020 12:57:19 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 12:04:12 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Jan 31, 2020 12:00:35 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Which ones are those?

How many playoff wins in 3 season with the Skins for Cousins versus one season with Case?

Cousins definitely played better vs the saints then Case did. Cousins made two key throws at the end & Case benefitted from a missed tackle.

"Definitely" is a strong word. He played more mistake free football, but did very little in that game prior to the OT. Case had almost 300 yards passing prior to his throw to win it in regulation. He did have a bad turnover, but created more offense for his team.

Remember that if not for a 50/50 coin flip going our way, we might be talking about a 180 yard 0 TD 79 passer rating WC loss for Cousins.

Also remember that after his miracle win and subsequent blowout loss in playoffs Case lost his starting gig for the Vikings.

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 14:51:29 GMT -6 NoresemanSam and ozzvic like this

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Post by slapnut19 on Jan 31, 2020 14:51:29 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 12:57:19 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jan 31, 2020 12:04:12 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Cousins definitely played better vs the saints then Case did. Cousins made two key throws at the end & Case benefitted from a missed tackle.

"Definitely" is a strong word. He played more mistake free football, but did very little in that game prior to the OT. Case had almost 300 yards passing prior to his throw to win it in regulation. He did have a bad turnover, but created more offense for his team.

Remember that if not for a 50/50 coin flip going our way, we might be talking about a 180 yard 0 TD 79 passer rating WC loss for Cousins.

Also remember that after his miracle win and subsequent blowout loss in playoffs Case lost his starting gig for the Vikings.

so now we get to selectively pick out stats? dude won a road playoff game in the superdome vs arguably the nfc favorite. rip him for not beating the packers if you want but he did his job vs the saints

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 14:51:56 GMT -6

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Post by comet52 on Jan 31, 2020 14:51:56 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 12:49:05 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jan 31, 2020 12:01:58 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

In 2018, Keenum signed a two-year $36 million contract with the Denver Broncos, playing for them for one season before being traded to the Redskins in 2019.

Cousins got around 10 million more this year so its not like we would've had money to bring in 3 all stars with that extra money. Maybe we could've gotten a better gaurd or DT but its not like we could've signed a bunch of game changers. I dont know why everyone thinks O'Neil can just switch to LT without a problem, maybe instead of playing musical chairs with the oline we actually go out and draft a guy who is a LT

I am talking about a hypothetical trade of Cousins and his contract and 4 million dollar signing of Case this coming season.

Addressing the line through the draft would be ideal, yes. Do you have any faith that Rick will actually do that?

In what bizarre alternate universe is Mike Zimmer going to ask Rick to sign Case Keenum?

I'm here for entertainment purposes only

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Kirk Cousins - Extension? Jan 31, 2020 15:09:01 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by ozzvic on Jan 31, 2020 15:09:01 GMT -6

Jan 31, 2020 12:57:19 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Jan 31, 2020 12:04:12 GMT -6 ozzvic said:

Cousins definitely played better vs the saints then Case did. Cousins made two key throws at the end & Case benefitted from a missed tackle.

"Definitely" is a strong word. He played more mistake free football, but did very little in that game prior to the OT. Case had almost 300 yards passing prior to his throw to win it in regulation. He did have a bad turnover, but created more offense for his team.

Remember that if not for a 50/50 coin flip going our way, we might be talking about a 180 yard 0 TD 79 passer rating WC loss for Cousins.

Also remember that after his miracle win and subsequent blowout loss in playoffs Case lost his starting gig for the Vikings.

Case did have like 4 ints in that game and was on a 1 year deal. I honestly thought the best idea was to sign both Teddy & Case to 2 year prove it type of deals like 13-15 a year and have a open competition and could've traded the loser after '18 but at the same time totally understood why Cousins was paid what he was to come here.