Leave Kirk Alone!

JABF
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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 5, 2019 16:56:10 GMT -6 Funkytown, Danchat, and 3 more like this

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Post by JABF on Dec 5, 2019 16:56:10 GMT -6

Dec 5, 2019 11:17:56 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Dec 5, 2019 10:42:51 GMT -6 PurpleKoolaid said:

Where did anyone say Cosuins is the main problem with the team?

That is the strawman the Cousins apologists put forward so they have a leg to stand on. Rather than argue that point, I was trying to argue the point people actually make, that Cousins is not a bad QB, but he is also probably not good enough.

That's the question. Is he, or isn't he good enough. It seems like teams (understandably) "want" a top-tier QB. But top-tier QBs are incredibly difficult to find. We all know that. Most of the teams don't have a Cousins-level QB. So the question comes down to how much QB do you "need" to win a Super Bowl?

I get it, that Cousins is getting top-tier money. But if you take that factor out of the argument then it leaves the question of whether or not you can win Super Bowl with him. If not, then you're probably not going to get better than Cousins outside of the draft. That's always possible but it's like winning the lottery in "level of difficulty" - at least that's how it looks to me. People like to point at Mahomes or Lamar like it's as easy to replicate that as just picking up one of those guys at Walmart. Or the other thing fans do, is look back in time and say, the team "could have" drafted so-and-so QB who turned out elite. Like a young Tom Brady is available in every 6th round of the draft each year.

I just come back to reality and your comment about "good enough" - that's the big question. If Cousins is not good enough then about all you can do is churn the draft. The Bears have had over 40 starting QBs and still do not have an elite QB. I've given up on getting an elite one. I'm now hoping we can just get a "good enough" guy. Super Bowls have been won by these "good enough" level QBs. I believe Cousins is that guy, but he's not going to put a team on his back and win one by himself. Giving up 37 points to a good team like the Seahawks is obviously not gonna end up with too many wins. JMO.

Last Edit: Dec 5, 2019 16:58:42 GMT -6 by JABF

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 5, 2019 17:09:51 GMT -6 Funkytown, Danchat, and 1 more like this

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Post by TAFKASP on Dec 5, 2019 17:09:51 GMT -6

Dec 5, 2019 16:56:10 GMT -6 JABF said:

Dec 5, 2019 11:17:56 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

That is the strawman the Cousins apologists put forward so they have a leg to stand on. Rather than argue that point, I was trying to argue the point people actually make, that Cousins is not a bad QB, but he is also probably not good enough.

That's the question. Is he, or isn't he good enough. It seems like teams (understandably) "want" a top-tier QB. But top-tier QBs are incredibly difficult to find. We all know that. Most of the teams don't have a Cousins-level QB. So the question comes down to how much QB do you "need" to win a Super Bowl?

I get it, that Cousins is getting top-tier money. But if you take that factor out of the argument then it leaves the question of whether or not you can win Super Bowl with him. If not, then you're probably not going to get better than Cousins outside of the draft. That's always possible but it's like winning the lottery in "level of difficulty" - at least that's how it looks to me. People like to point at Mahomes or Lamar like it's as easy to replicate that as just picking up one of those guys at Walmart. Or the other thing fans do, is look back in time and say, the team "could have" drafted so-and-so QB who turned out elite. Like a young Tom Brady is available in every 6th round of the draft each year.

I just come back to reality and your comment about "good enough" - that's the big question. If Cousins is not good enough then about all you can do is churn the draft. The Bears have had over 40 starting QBs and still do not have an elite QB. I've given up on getting an elite one. I'm now hoping we can just get a "good enough" guy. Super Bowls have been won by these "good enough" level QBs. I believe Cousins is that guy, but he's not going to put a team on his back and win one by himself. Giving up 37 points to a good team like the Seahawks is obviously not gonna end up with too many wins. JMO.

Exactly! How many elite Qbs are there in the entire league that we believe could put a team on their back and carry them to wins against other top teams, much less Super Bowl championships, 5? You'd be really stretching to suggest there are 10, which leaves more than 2/3 of the league with good enough, or garbage at the position.

If we want to argue his not living up to his contract I'll agree 100%. I'd also suggest if you ever thought it was possible he could, you're delusional. But outside of that argument, this team's problem isn't Kirk Cousins.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 5, 2019 19:49:30 GMT -6 via mobile Funkytown, vikecycle, and 3 more like this

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Post by ozzvic on Dec 5, 2019 19:49:30 GMT -6

Dec 4, 2019 10:50:59 GMT -6 flaviking said:

Dec 4, 2019 10:15:39 GMT -6 DaveW said:

He still can't beat teams with winning records, he has zero this year, and I think zero last year, no?

He also has 0 playoff wins.

The guy is making $84 million dollars, he deserves the scrutiny. If he was on a rookie deal i would get this 'defense' of him, but when he is getting paid top 3 QB money he better be performing at at least a top ten QB standard, which he isn't when you look at how he does against teams with winning records and the playoffs etc

I mean the guys 'signature' win for us is against a crappy Broncos team in Minnesota, which we STILL had to have 4 stops inside the 10 yard line to win the game.

This. And this is what I don't really like about Kirk.

Here is the deal. At 28 million a season, thats a lot of money that can't be used to bolster the roster in other places. Letting Sheldon Richardson Walk (and his 47 QB pressures) has had an impact.. In comparison.. so far this season Shamar Stephen has 6.. 6! So all the work Hunter and Griff do, goes for not, as QB's like Wilson just step up into the pocket to buy some extra time. Witht hat extra time they expose an already aging secondary.

Like it or not Kirk has to make those 4th and 3 plays in Seattle, not throw an interception in Green Bay, and beat a reeling Chiefs team with Matt Moore. Yes, the defense struggled in all fo those games, and its not 100% on Kirk, but Kirk's 28 million is a big reason why they are struggling. The defense is aging, and we dont have the cap space to bring in guys like Ramsey or Fitzpatrick.

Only so much Zim can do. Kirks gotta be that much better to make up for the deficiencies caused by his salary, imho.

He is playing top 5 actually in just about every QB stat and lets be honest you cant blame him for leading the offense to only 4 scores when the offense only has the ball for 20 minutes of the game, cant blame him that the defense allowed 37 points. Not a huge Cousins fan but i can give him credit when he plays good. The 28 million isnt that big when you realize hes only around the 8th highest paid QB and out of those guys he has more wins except for Wilson, so you can make the argument he's earned his contract.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 7:39:03 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Dec 6, 2019 7:39:03 GMT -6

Dec 5, 2019 16:56:10 GMT -6 JABF said:

Dec 5, 2019 11:17:56 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

That is the strawman the Cousins apologists put forward so they have a leg to stand on. Rather than argue that point, I was trying to argue the point people actually make, that Cousins is not a bad QB, but he is also probably not good enough.

That's the question. Is he, or isn't he good enough. It seems like teams (understandably) "want" a top-tier QB. But top-tier QBs are incredibly difficult to find. We all know that. Most of the teams don't have a Cousins-level QB. So the question comes down to how much QB do you "need" to win a Super Bowl?

I get it, that Cousins is getting top-tier money. But if you take that factor out of the argument then it leaves the question of whether or not you can win Super Bowl with him. If not, then you're probably not going to get better than Cousins outside of the draft. That's always possible but it's like winning the lottery in "level of difficulty" - at least that's how it looks to me. People like to point at Mahomes or Lamar like it's as easy to replicate that as just picking up one of those guys at Walmart. Or the other thing fans do, is look back in time and say, the team "could have" drafted so-and-so QB who turned out elite. Like a young Tom Brady is available in every 6th round of the draft each year.

I just come back to reality and your comment about "good enough" - that's the big question. If Cousins is not good enough then about all you can do is churn the draft. The Bears have had over 40 starting QBs and still do not have an elite QB. I've given up on getting an elite one. I'm now hoping we can just get a "good enough" guy. Super Bowls have been won by these "good enough" level QBs. I believe Cousins is that guy, but he's not going to put a team on his back and win one by himself. Giving up 37 points to a good team like the Seahawks is obviously not gonna end up with too many wins. JMO.

I agree that it is incredibly difficult to find that top tier QB. However, if you lock into a non-top tier QB with a massive fully guaranteed contract, how do you ever get that top tier QB? How do you pay the team that is necessary to win it all without a top tier QB?

We have already passed over at least one top tier guy because we already had our expensive above average QB. If Tua or the next great QB falls to us again this year, we will pass over him again.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 9:30:09 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by JABF on Dec 6, 2019 9:30:09 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 7:39:03 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Dec 5, 2019 16:56:10 GMT -6 JABF said:

That's the question. Is he, or isn't he good enough. It seems like teams (understandably) "want" a top-tier QB. But top-tier QBs are incredibly difficult to find. We all know that. Most of the teams don't have a Cousins-level QB. So the question comes down to how much QB do you "need" to win a Super Bowl?

I get it, that Cousins is getting top-tier money. But if you take that factor out of the argument then it leaves the question of whether or not you can win Super Bowl with him. If not, then you're probably not going to get better than Cousins outside of the draft. That's always possible but it's like winning the lottery in "level of difficulty" - at least that's how it looks to me. People like to point at Mahomes or Lamar like it's as easy to replicate that as just picking up one of those guys at Walmart. Or the other thing fans do, is look back in time and say, the team "could have" drafted so-and-so QB who turned out elite. Like a young Tom Brady is available in every 6th round of the draft each year.

I just come back to reality and your comment about "good enough" - that's the big question. If Cousins is not good enough then about all you can do is churn the draft. The Bears have had over 40 starting QBs and still do not have an elite QB. I've given up on getting an elite one. I'm now hoping we can just get a "good enough" guy. Super Bowls have been won by these "good enough" level QBs. I believe Cousins is that guy, but he's not going to put a team on his back and win one by himself. Giving up 37 points to a good team like the Seahawks is obviously not gonna end up with too many wins. JMO.

I agree that it is incredibly difficult to find that top tier QB. However, if you lock into a non-top tier QB with a massive fully guaranteed contract, how do you ever get that top tier QB? How do you pay the team that is necessary to win it all without a top tier QB?

We have already passed over at least one top tier guy because we already had our expensive above average QB. If Tua or the next great QB falls to us again this year, we will pass over him again.

I agree with you. It's not an easy black-and-white situation. I personally like the way Bill Belichick has been drafting QBs about every other year. He's had success with that. I'd love to see the Bears follow that model. When Tom Brady was out for the 4 games they still won 3 out of 4 with the backups. I watched their current rookie backup in a game earlier this year, and he looked like yet another QB with talent. Worst case you have a solid backup. Best case you find a guy to be the #1 for you. I'm talking about my hopes for the Bears here, as I have no clue as to the Vikings drafts. Maybe this is not applicable to you guys.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 10:08:33 GMT -6 Funkytown and JABF like this

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Post by whoskmoon on Dec 6, 2019 10:08:33 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 9:30:09 GMT -6 JABF said:

Dec 6, 2019 7:39:03 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I agree that it is incredibly difficult to find that top tier QB. However, if you lock into a non-top tier QB with a massive fully guaranteed contract, how do you ever get that top tier QB? How do you pay the team that is necessary to win it all without a top tier QB?

We have already passed over at least one top tier guy because we already had our expensive above average QB. If Tua or the next great QB falls to us again this year, we will pass over him again.

I agree with you. It's not an easy black-and-white situation. I personally like the way Bill Belichick has been drafting QBs about every other year. He's had success with that. I'd love to see the Bears follow that model. When Tom Brady was out for the 4 games they still won 3 out of 4 with the backups. I watched their current rookie backup in a game earlier this year, and he looked like yet another QB with talent. Worst case you have a solid backup. Best case you find a guy to be the #1 for you. I'm talking about my hopes for the Bears here, as I have no clue as to the Vikings drafts. Maybe this is not applicable to you guys.

I personally wouldn't want any of the QBs drafted by the Pats since they drafted Brady, starting for my team. We aren't talking about getting a serviceable backup here or even an okay starter. We are talking about getting a QB that is an upgrade over Cousins. You more than likely aren't going to get that outside of round 1.

The Ravens and the Chiefs on the other hand are probably the example you are looking for on how to get your elite starter while you currently have a serviceable veteran starting for you.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 10:37:04 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by Fenrir on Dec 6, 2019 10:37:04 GMT -6

Dec 5, 2019 17:09:51 GMT -6 TAFKASP said:

Dec 5, 2019 16:56:10 GMT -6 JABF said:

That's the question. Is he, or isn't he good enough. It seems like teams (understandably) "want" a top-tier QB. But top-tier QBs are incredibly difficult to find. We all know that. Most of the teams don't have a Cousins-level QB. So the question comes down to how much QB do you "need" to win a Super Bowl?

I get it, that Cousins is getting top-tier money. But if you take that factor out of the argument then it leaves the question of whether or not you can win Super Bowl with him. If not, then you're probably not going to get better than Cousins outside of the draft. That's always possible but it's like winning the lottery in "level of difficulty" - at least that's how it looks to me. People like to point at Mahomes or Lamar like it's as easy to replicate that as just picking up one of those guys at Walmart. Or the other thing fans do, is look back in time and say, the team "could have" drafted so-and-so QB who turned out elite. Like a young Tom Brady is available in every 6th round of the draft each year.

I just come back to reality and your comment about "good enough" - that's the big question. If Cousins is not good enough then about all you can do is churn the draft. The Bears have had over 40 starting QBs and still do not have an elite QB. I've given up on getting an elite one. I'm now hoping we can just get a "good enough" guy. Super Bowls have been won by these "good enough" level QBs. I believe Cousins is that guy, but he's not going to put a team on his back and win one by himself. Giving up 37 points to a good team like the Seahawks is obviously not gonna end up with too many wins. JMO.

Exactly! How many elite Qbs are there in the entire league that we believe could put a team on their back and carry them to wins against other top teams, much less Super Bowl championships, 5? You'd be really stretching to suggest there are 10, which leaves more than 2/3 of the league with good enough, or garbage at the position.

If we want to argue his not living up to his contract I'll agree 100%. I'd also suggest if you ever thought it was possible he could, you're delusional. But outside of that argument, this team's problem isn't Kirk Cousins.

[br

He doesn’t have “it”, no matter what the regular season stats say. His career it was it is, he cannot win the big one. It’s been proven before and it is was it is. He’s a good regular season QB and can beat up on bad and mediocre teams. But put him in a big game and give him a big throw and he’ll miss it. Over and over again, as history has proven.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 11:20:01 GMT -6

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Post by whoskmoon on Dec 6, 2019 11:20:01 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 10:37:04 GMT -6 Fenrir said:

Dec 5, 2019 17:09:51 GMT -6 TAFKASP said:

Exactly! How many elite Qbs are there in the entire league that we believe could put a team on their back and carry them to wins against other top teams, much less Super Bowl championships, 5? You'd be really stretching to suggest there are 10, which leaves more than 2/3 of the league with good enough, or garbage at the position.

If we want to argue his not living up to his contract I'll agree 100%. I'd also suggest if you ever thought it was possible he could, you're delusional. But outside of that argument, this team's problem isn't Kirk Cousins.

[br

He doesn’t have “it”, no matter what the regular season stats say. His career it was it is, he cannot win the big one. It’s been proven before and it is was it is. He’s a good regular season QB and can beat up on bad and mediocre teams. But put him in a big game and give him a big throw and he’ll miss it. Over and over again, as history has proven.

I am pretty confident that after this week, every win this season will have been against a sub .500 team (assuming Oakland loses, and they will). He will have exactly 1 win against a winning team as a Viking and will probably have to beat the Packers to get to two by the end of the season.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 18:06:25 GMT -6 Funkytown, Danchat, and 1 more like this

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Post by Raptorman on Dec 6, 2019 18:06:25 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 11:20:01 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

Dec 6, 2019 10:37:04 GMT -6 Fenrir said:

[br

He doesn’t have “it”, no matter what the regular season stats say. His career it was it is, he cannot win the big one. It’s been proven before and it is was it is. He’s a good regular season QB and can beat up on bad and mediocre teams. But put him in a big game and give him a big throw and he’ll miss it. Over and over again, as history has proven.

I am pretty confident that after this week, every win this season will have been against a sub .500 team (assuming Oakland loses, and they will). He will have exactly 1 win against a winning team as a Viking and will probably have to beat the Packers to get to two by the end of the season.

Number of wins Tom Brady has against winning teams this year. 2. .
Number of wins Aaron Rodgers has against winning teams this year. 2.

Simply pointing out the fallacy of "The elite QB" myth.

Last Edit: Dec 6, 2019 18:07:06 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 19:36:30 GMT -6

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Post by vikingpwr on Dec 6, 2019 19:36:30 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 18:06:25 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Dec 6, 2019 11:20:01 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

I am pretty confident that after this week, every win this season will have been against a sub .500 team (assuming Oakland loses, and they will). He will have exactly 1 win against a winning team as a Viking and will probably have to beat the Packers to get to two by the end of the season.

Number of wins Tom Brady has against winning teams this year. 2. .
Number of wins Aaron Rodgers has against winning teams this year. 2.

Interesting stat.

Last Edit: Dec 6, 2019 19:38:02 GMT -6 by vikingpwr

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 20:14:25 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Raptorman on Dec 6, 2019 20:14:25 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 19:36:30 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Dec 6, 2019 18:06:25 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Number of wins Tom Brady has against winning teams this year. 2. .
Number of wins Aaron Rodgers has against winning teams this year. 2.

Interesting stat.

Other QB's of winning teams.

Wlison. 3

Jimmy G. 2

Brees. 2

Jackson. 5 in the last 6 weeks. Seahawks, Patriots, Texans, Rams, Niners. By an average scores of 33 to 14. Anyone want to guess who the MVP will be? BTW, notice the 14.

Last Edit: Dec 6, 2019 20:15:48 GMT -6 by Raptorman

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 20:42:13 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 20:42:13 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 20:14:25 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

Dec 6, 2019 19:36:30 GMT -6 vikingpwr said:

Interesting stat.

Other QB's of winning teams.

Wlison. 3

Jimmy G. 2

Brees. 2

Jackson. 5 in the last 6 weeks. Seahawks, Patriots, Texans, Rams, Niners. By an average scores of 33 to 14. Anyone want to guess who the MVP will be? BTW, notice the 14.

How many QBs were drafted before Jackson? I dont feel like looking it up.

My philosophy with the draft has always been.... there are great picks to be made at just about any slot.... the key is having a good GM who will have the right scouts and coaches in place. And then ultimately make the right decision on who to draft based on your team's unique mix of system/locker room/etc.

Most didnt want to touch Jackson, but DeCosta identified him as a guy who would fit their scheme... props to him for a good pick which has led to his team winning games and being the leader for #1 seed. HFA and 1st round bye... ahead of Brady and Belichik.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 21:05:09 GMT -6 Funkytown likes this

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Post by Danchat on Dec 6, 2019 21:05:09 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 20:42:13 GMT -6 BosViking said:

How many QBs were drafted before Jackson? I dont feel like looking it up.

My philosophy with the draft has always been.... there are great picks to be made at just about any slot.... the key is having a good GM who will have the right scouts and coaches in place. And then ultimately make the right decision on who to draft based on your team's unique mix of system/locker room/etc.

Most didnt want to touch Jackson, but DeCosta identified him as a guy who would fit their scheme... props to him for a good pick which has led to his team winning games and being the leader for #1 seed. HFA and 1st round bye... ahead of Brady and Belichik.

4 QBs (Mayfield to Browns, Darnold to Jets, Allen to Bills, Rosen to Cardinals).

The pick was actually made by Ozzie Newsome, as 2018 was his last draft before he retired and handed the baton to DeCosta. Newsome was a HOF-caliber GM and with DeCosta stepping up from the "backup" GM to the full-time guy, they seem to be in good hands.

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 21:41:35 GMT -6 via Tapatalk

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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 21:41:35 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 21:05:09 GMT -6 Danchat said:

Dec 6, 2019 20:42:13 GMT -6 BosViking said:

How many QBs were drafted before Jackson? I dont feel like looking it up.

My philosophy with the draft has always been.... there are great picks to be made at just about any slot.... the key is having a good GM who will have the right scouts and coaches in place. And then ultimately make the right decision on who to draft based on your team's unique mix of system/locker room/etc.

Most didnt want to touch Jackson, but DeCosta identified him as a guy who would fit their scheme... props to him for a good pick which has led to his team winning games and being the leader for #1 seed. HFA and 1st round bye... ahead of Brady and Belichik.

4 QBs (Mayfield to Browns, Darnold to Jets, Allen to Bills, Rosen to Cardinals).

The pick was actually made by Ozzie Newsome, as 2018 was his last draft before he retired and handed the baton to DeCosta. Newsome was a HOF-caliber GM and with DeCosta stepping up from the "backup" GM to the full-time guy, they seem to be in good hands.

I know ozzie was there, but come on... you dont think Ozzie would let Eric have more input on Eric's franchise QB? Ozzie wouldn't force someone on Eric last second like that.....

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Leave Kirk Alone! Dec 6, 2019 21:43:49 GMT -6 via mobile Danchat likes this

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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 21:43:49 GMT -6

Dec 6, 2019 21:41:35 GMT -6 BosViking said:

Dec 6, 2019 21:05:09 GMT -6 Danchat said:

4 QBs (Mayfield to Browns, Darnold to Jets, Allen to Bills, Rosen to Cardinals).

The pick was actually made by Ozzie Newsome, as 2018 was his last draft before he retired and handed the baton to DeCosta. Newsome was a HOF-caliber GM and with DeCosta stepping up from the "backup" GM to the full-time guy, they seem to be in good hands.

I know ozzie was there, but come on... you dont think Ozzie would let Eric have more input on Eric's franchise QB? Ozzie wouldn't force someone on Eric last second like that.....

ozzie aint in the charity buisness. Eric had input as did harbaugh, but it was ozzie's call.