Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier

Reignman
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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Nov 21, 2014 1:34:55 GMT -6

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Post by Reignman on Nov 21, 2014 1:34:55 GMT -6

To me that's how you can tell if a coach is the real deal. He comes in and turns things around regardless of the talent. What has Frazier ever improved? We just hear excuses. Zim comes in and immediately has our defense respectable. I don't have much of opinion about Musgrave because a guy that clearly didn't belong in this league was forced down his throat at QB. What can you do? Any boss would look bad if his only option were Gilligan.

It's hard for me to completely throw Norv under the bus as well. He was kind of dealt a raw deal. First with the whole Peterson thing, and then with Cassel going down. He's forced to run an offense with rookie QB/RB combo, and a receiver who has all the talent in the world when he has the ball, but absolutely no ability to get open to get the ball. Who knows where we'd be if we had Cassel/Peterson all year. We were conservative, but effective with that combo in our very 1st game.

We should be able to beat the Panthers, Jets, and Bears at home and finish 7-9, which would be a promising season all things considered. 6-10 is more realistic though as I'm sure we'll lose one of those home games. No way we win any of our remaining road games in Detroit or Miami.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

Oracle Bone Diviner
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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Nov 21, 2014 18:49:31 GMT -6

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Nov 21, 2014 18:49:31 GMT -6

Nov 21, 2014 1:34:55 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Who knows where we'd be if we had Cassel/Peterson all year. We were conservative, but effective with that combo in our very 1st game.

This is what worries me the most. People have defended him because Peterson is out and Teddy is a rookie. But it was no different in Game 1. So while I'm willing to give him the rest of this season, if he doesn't start an aggressive, PLAY TO WIN offense we need to move on.

Unfortunately I don't think there's a snowball's chance of that...

There's a ringing in my ear and I think it's the Call of the Wild

itinerant, noun; a person who works and wanders.

Reignman
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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Nov 21, 2014 19:13:43 GMT -6 HunterMorrow likes this

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Post by Reignman on Nov 21, 2014 19:13:43 GMT -6

Well I can't argue with that. We've seen enough conservative ball management crap since the TJack era, and it's getting tiresome. It's an offensive passing league now and defenses are getting called all the time for the slightest contact, and we're not taking advantage of it by taking more shots down field. But at the same time, I don't entirely blame Norv. I refuse to believe he's calling all those checkdowns. Those are on Teddy, and the Bears game was extra ridiculous for some reason. Teddy is scared or lacking confidence right now and maybe that's Norvs fault.

The checkdown designs are also Norvs fault. Why on earth are so many of our checkdowns starting so far behind the LOS? I just don't get it. Why would you start an offensive play in the hole? Hey I gotta run 5 yards with the ball just to break even. And what makes it worse is, Teddy doesn't have a very quick delivery when he goes to the checkdown. He just kind of nonchalantly lobs it out there giving the defense time to close.

I also fault Norv for not getting our best play maker more involved on offense. How do you not find ways to get the ball into CP's hands more often? It's inexcusable. Norv is far worse than Musgrave when it comes to that. Why aren't we seeing more screens? Why aren't we seeing more end arounds or those jet sweeps, or at least a fake jet sweep from time to time? The guy had 100 yards rushing on 3 carries in the very 1st game and we pretty much abandoned that strategy. I swear the Vikings are the only team that takes itself away from things that work.

Aug 8, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -6 whoskmoon said:

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

Minniman Moderator Posts: 13,606 Likes: 8,097	Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Nov 23, 2014 15:50:24 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Minniman on Nov 23, 2014 15:50:24 GMT -6 On the bright side, the Cleveland Browns offense is much improved this season.
	Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

Frosted Rookie Enemy Fan Forum Guy Posts: 234 Likes: 11	Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Nov 23, 2014 15:52:25 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Frosted on Nov 23, 2014 15:52:25 GMT -6 I don't know how anyone can fault Norv for today's offensive issues.

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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Nov 23, 2014 16:51:04 GMT -6

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Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Nov 23, 2014 16:51:04 GMT -6

Nov 23, 2014 15:52:25 GMT -6 Frosted said:

I don't know how anyone can fault Norv for today's offensive issues.

I thought Norv played a better than average game, but his average has been very low. But I liked that we were throwing past the LOS a fair bit, so if that's his doing I congratulate him. I also liked that Teddy was throwing balls to covered receivers, giving them a chance to make the catch, so if that's due to Norv I congratulate him on that too. But I still want to see more throws on first down...a LOT more....I think I saw 2 in the 3 quarters I watched. I probably missed a couple. So I'll upgrade Norv from an F to a D based on today's game.

Last Edit: Nov 23, 2014 16:57:10 GMT -6 by Oracle Bone Diviner

There's a ringing in my ear and I think it's the Call of the Wild

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Oracle Bone Diviner Moderator Posts: 14,680 Likes: 10,590 Fan Since: last century	Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Nov 23, 2014 16:53:17 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Oracle Bone Diviner on Nov 23, 2014 16:53:17 GMT -6 delete me
	Last Edit: Nov 23, 2014 16:56:19 GMT -6 by Oracle Bone Diviner There's a ringing in my ear and I think it's the Call of the Wild itinerant, noun; a person who works and wanders.

Minniman
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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Nov 23, 2014 19:19:01 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Nov 23, 2014 19:19:01 GMT -6

Nov 23, 2014 15:52:25 GMT -6 Frosted said:

I don't know how anyone can fault Norv for today's offensive issues.

Perhaps I can. Norv consistently sends all of his receivers into patterns, so there is no time to pass. Wouldn't it help a young quarterback to be able to get comfortable in the pocket and make some mid and deep throws?

On several plays, the back bypassed a block going out for the outlet, and that defender broke down the pocket. If that defender had been doubled up, there would not have been a need for the back to be the outlet.

I understand that Turner is trying to flood zones, but Bridgewater does not have time to go through his progressions, and receivers running nine and seven routes, or running double moves, do not have time to make their breaks.

The Vikings need more isolation plays. That is, plays are set up for one or two receivers and the other receivers either clear or block. One cannot keep sending out a layered attack if the quarterback does not have the time or experience to execute the gameplan.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

James
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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Dec 1, 2014 15:43:38 GMT -6

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Post by James on Dec 1, 2014 15:43:38 GMT -6

Overall I think what people are failing to realize is that this offense was originally built around Peterson with Cassel at QB. This is not a video game where u can just stick players in and expect them to pick up where the previous starter left out. We took some major losses on offense. Right now we have four starters gone. Rudolph was gone for a good portion of the season. I can't fault Norv at all. We did not go into this season expecting Teddy to be starting this year and Peterson suspended. We also didn't expect Jerome Simpson to be released either. We lost some key pieces this season and now Norv basically has to find out the strengths and weaknesses of the new personnel. Now we have Charlie Johnson and Ben Tate on the team and we have to gameplan more to get them into the system. Unfortunately we didn't have this pieces in the offseason and just have to try them out during game days and see how they do. I don't blame Norv for being conservative. After everything we've been through so far we are 5-7, and still in position to finish .500 or higher. That's lucky in itself.

Minniman
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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Dec 1, 2014 23:24:56 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Dec 1, 2014 23:24:56 GMT -6

Dec 1, 2014 15:43:38 GMT -6 James said:

Overall I think what people are failing to realize is that this offense was originally built around Peterson with Cassel at QB.

This offensive gameplan was built around Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith.

This is not a video game where u can just stick players in and expect them to pick up where the previous starter left out. We took some major losses on offense. Right now we have four starters gone. Rudolph was gone for a good portion of the season. I can't fault Norv at all.

It is not a video game, and the Vikings have taken some hits, but all teams lose players and must adapt. If the square peg does not fit in the round hole, then change the peg or change the hole.

We did not go into this season expecting Teddy to be starting this year and Peterson suspended. We also didn't expect Jerome Simpson to be released either. We lost some key pieces this season and now Norv basically has to find out the strengths and weaknesses of the new personnel.

The Vikings did not expect Patterson to progress this slowly either; I agree. My fault with Turner is that he has a set playbook and has trouble adapting to the changes. He could help Bridgewater out by protecting him better. The Patriots do that; the Packers do that, and so do the Broncos. Why do their star quarterbacks need protection schemes and a rookie does not? Norv is throwing Bridgewater to the wolves without even a pointed stick.

Now we have Charlie Johnson and Ben Tate on the team and we have to gameplan more to get them into the system. Unfortunately we didn't have this pieces in the offseason and just have to try them out during game days and see how they do. I don't blame Norv for being conservative. After everything we've been through so far we are 5-7, and still in position to finish .500 or higher. That's lucky in itself.

Lucky is a good bounce or a deflected pass. Good teams create their own advantages by doing the work necessary to win. I do not blame Turner for being conservative, but I do blame him for using low percentage plays and faulty football logic. I blame him for using the same plays time and time again - even if they don't work. That was the same problem that Childress and Musgrave had, and I would rather not have to wait until the next coach gets hired to see progress. I see good play design from Turner as well, but he needs to rethink his offensive philosophy given the players he has and the defenses he plays.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.

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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Dec 2, 2014 4:01:17 GMT -6

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Post by James on Dec 2, 2014 4:01:17 GMT -6

You've answer your own question Minniman, he's a rookie. And let's be fair, Matt Kalil has not lived up to expectations. He has allowed more sacks among any LT in the NFL. It doesn't matter what protection scheme you call when players are not executing. As for all these QBs you bring up. I don't think it's fair to compare these stars to a rookie QB. I know Rodgers atleast got to sit behind Favre for a while before he actually started. Even then he didn't start out as great as he was now. It comes through experience. This is a NEW SYSTEM. NEW COACHES, NEW QB, NEW RB, we are going to have some growing pains. It will get better, trust me. With all the mishaps we've had, you can't expect things to get fixed so quickly. Things will get better soon though.

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Norv Turner = The New Leslie Frazier Dec 2, 2014 9:32:43 GMT -6

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Post by Minniman on Dec 2, 2014 9:32:43 GMT -6

Dec 2, 2014 4:01:17 GMT -6 James said:

You've answer your own question Minniman, he's a rookie... As for all these QBs you bring up. I don't think it's fair to compare these stars to a rookie QB. I know Rodgers at least got to sit behind Favre for a while before he actually started. Even then he didn't start out as great as he was now. It comes through experience.

That is a god point. Bridgewater is a rookie, and he will not come out gangbusters. A few preseason games do not make a seasoned pro.

On the other hand, this offense did not do well with Peterson or Matt Cassel either.

This is a NEW SYSTEM. NEW COACHES, NEW QB, NEW RB, we are going to have some growing pains. It will get better, trust me. With all the mishaps we've had, you can't expect things to get fixed so quickly. Things will get better soon though.

I am looking at each play in each situation. I see techniques and schemes that other teams use well, but the Vikings do not. I see low percentage calls or patterns that do not make sense for the down and distance situation. Having a five yard outlet pass thrown from a seven step drop on third and long is fruitless. The chance of a first down throwing to the outlet is minimal. It is better to keep that back in to block to give time for deeper patterns to develop.

And let's be fair, Matt Kalil has not lived up to expectations. He has allowed more sacks among any LT in the NFL. It doesn't matter what protection scheme you call when players are not executing.

Kalil is also put on an island more often than many other tackles. Without a tight end to double or rub or a back to help, then any problems Kalil is having physically with be exacerbated. I have also seen Kalil force his man to the outside of the pocket only to have the quarterback step back into the defender because the right guard play has allowed penetration. Kalil has been smoked on some plays, but he has also been burned by poor line play in general. Kalil played better as a rookie, and he certainly played better before his injuries. His regression is unfortunate, but shouldn't the coordinator take that into consideration when creating a gameplan from a vast NFL playbook? I believe so.

Logic is the beginning of wisdom - not the end.