Not Rocket Science...

The other thing about this is that pocket qb's need a mental clock in their head on when to throw; mobile qb's need to have a mental clock in their head on when to throw, or move from the pocket and scramble.

I ran into that problem back in 2015 when I was dissecting Special Ted. I wanted to time his snap to release on every play, and the opposing QB's to have someone to compare him to, but Teddy was pulling the ball down often to move around in the pocket, so I had to start timing 2 things on every play, snap to flushed (from the pocket) and snap to release (actually throwing the ball). I was trying to be as fair as possible to Teddy lol. If I just went by snap to release his times were way higher than anyone else which makes him seem like a slow QB. He's more average when I go by snap to flush. I guess you could say the snap to flush was that internal clock.

When they scramble instead of throwing they are risking higher sack numbers for bigger plays.

Yeah the ones who escape the pocket to buy more time are looking for a bigger play, like Rodgers, but others like Lamar Jackson are doing it just to run lol. Does buying the extra time actually lead to bigger plays though? Rodgers and Wilson almost make it seem so.

It's a double edged sword. But what makes a guy like Rogers/Wilson or even Romo different then say an RGIII or Vick is that they have an awareness in the pocket of when to move but are still looking to throw downfield, their absolute last option is to run.

I guess you could say there are 3 types of QB's, statues (Manning, Brady), guys who are mobile enough to escape the pocket but continue to look for a pass downfield (Rodgers, Wilson), and guys who look to run as soon as they leave the pocket (Vick, Jackson). I'm curious now to know how that middle group compares to the statues when it comes to passing numbers. We know the statue guys are better passers than the mobiles guys.

Oct 2, 2019 10:13:07 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

And I would bet that holding calls on the lineman for scramblers are higher than the pocket pa$$ers.

That seems like it would be the case if for anything because the OL has to block longer for a scrambler. I'll have Paul combine a few charts later to see if that's the case.

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

v
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Not Rocket Science... Oct 2, 2019 12:09:22 GMT -6

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Post by v on Oct 2, 2019 12:09:22 GMT -6

ESPECIALLY FOR THE VIKINGS, a mobile QB will give us a better chance ESPECIALLY with our Paralyzed QB (who cant run, throw, fumbles and panics)... Rogers makes GB because of his mobility. Nuff said as we are stuck with D*ck head Cousins

khalilsackdaddy
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Not Rocket Science... Oct 2, 2019 13:42:19 GMT -6 Reignman likes this

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Post by khalilsackdaddy on Oct 2, 2019 13:42:19 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2019 12:04:02 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Oct 2, 2019 10:13:07 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

And I would bet that holding calls on the lineman for scramblers are higher than the pocket pa$$ers.

That seems like it would be the case if for anything because the OL has to block longer for a scrambler. I'll have Paul combine a few charts later to see if that's the case.

Also the fact that the DL are changing direction to continue after the qb, and that creates potential holding issues for the OL.

Reignman
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Not Rocket Science... Oct 2, 2019 15:49:11 GMT -6

Quote

Post by Reignman on Oct 2, 2019 15:49:11 GMT -6

Alright lets go back to my 2015 notes and do some internal clock rocket science.

Flushed from the pocket:

                                                            AIR FLUSH THROW            THROW
           CMP  ATT   PCT   YDS   AVG  TD  IN   FD  D/TGT  /YAC  TIME  TIME 20+  RATE   AWAY
Cousins     12   27  44.4   114  4.22   1   3    4   7.96  77.2  2.85  4.91   4  14.8%    4
Teddy       26   72  36.1   343  4.76   0   2   11   7.04  45.5  2.96  4.96   5   6.9%   27
opponents   24   54  44.4   412  7.63   5   1    9  13.70  68.9  2.85  5.09  11  20.4%   11

Uff-da, Teddy was not good when he bought himself extra time. Neither was Cousins, but our opponents did well.

from the pocket:

                                                            AIR FLUSH THROW            THROW
           CMP  ATT   PCT   YDS   AVG  TD  IN   FD  D/TGT  /YAC  TIME  TIME 20+  RATE   AWAY
Cousins    335  483  69.4  3686  7.63  27   8  161   8.54  59.3  ----  2.58  56  11.6%    1
Teddy      231  336  68.8  2618  7.79  14   7  117   8.50  50.8  ----  2.60  44  13.1%    5
opponents  293  462  63.4  3344  7.24  18  11  148   8.90  58.9  ----  2.50  55  11.9%    3

It's clear everyone was better from the pocket. Depth of target is the most surprising. I figured it would have been higher when a QB gets outside the pocket and coverage breaks down. Teddy is the only one who threw more 20+ yard passes from the pocket than outside, and he threw the ball away a ton after buying the extra time too.

As far as internal clock goes, if a QB doesn't throw the ball, flush time is about 1/3rd of a second more than in pocket release time.

sack data:

          flushed from pocket:             from the pocket:
                     SACK  FLUSH  SACK               SACK  SACK
          SNAP SACK  RATE   TIME  TIME     SNAP SACK RATE  TIME
Cousins     42   11  26.2%  2.66  4.54      498  15  3.0%  3.06
Teddy      122   22  18.0%  2.80  4.88      359  22  6.1%  2.73
opponents   95   17  17.9%  2.81  4.55      489  27  5.5%  2.60

And there we have it, a guy is sacked more often when he's flushed from the pocket, which isn't surprising because you're usually flushed when you run out of time lol. Cousins was the least effective at escaping the pressure. From the pocket each QB was getting rid of the ball on average faster than they were getting sacked.

Teddy on average was able to buy himself more time when he was flushed, 2.17 seconds to Cousins 1.89, and opponents 2.02. Not that it did him any good haha. Learn to throw from the pocket kids.

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

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Not Rocket Science... Oct 2, 2019 17:40:32 GMT -6 Funkytown and Danchat like this

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Post by Reignman on Oct 2, 2019 17:40:32 GMT -6

Oct 2, 2019 12:04:02 GMT -6 Reignman said:

Oct 2, 2019 10:13:07 GMT -6 Raptorman said:

And I would bet that holding calls on the lineman for scramblers are higher than the pocket pa$$ers.

That seems like it would be the case if for anything because the OL has to block longer for a scrambler. I'll have Paul combine a few charts later to see if that's the case.

Oct 2, 2019 13:42:19 GMT -6 khalilsackdaddy said:

Also the fact that the DL are changing direction to continue after the qb, and that creates potential holding issues for the OL.

And the results are in.

I didn't want to go through and label each QB as scrambler, pocket, or dual threat, so I'm just going to list every QB and let you guys decide for yourselves if there are more offensive holding calls for whatever type of QB.

This is 2009-2017, minimum 30 games, every holding call even the ones declined or offsetting. Ranked by who had the most. I threw Teddy and Trubisky on their even though they haven't played 30 games.

By Player:

SPOILER: Click to show

RK                    G  HOLDS  per/G
 1. t.taylor          44   71   1.614
 2. d.prescott        31   42   1.355
 3. j.mccown          42   56   1.333
 4. j.winston         45   59   1.311
 5. b.roethlisberger 127  162   1.276
 6. t.romo            86  109   1.267
 7. b.bortles         61   77   1.262
 8. a.rodgers        123  150   1.220
 9. c.palmer         115  139   1.209
10. r.griffin         39   47   1.205
11. j.cutler         113  135   1.195
12. j.freeman         60   71   1.183
13. a.dalton         106  125   1.179
14. r.wilson          96  113   1.177
15. b.hoyer           34   40   1.176
16. j.campbell        42   49   1.167
17. d.carr            63   72   1.143
18. k.cousins         58   66   1.138
19. k.orton           48   54   1.125
20. n.foles           40   45   1.125
21. m.vick            43   48   1.116
22. r.fitzpatrick    104  115   1.106
23. d.brees          142  155   1.092
24. s.bradford        78   84   1.077
25. m.stafford       124  133   1.073
26. r.tannehill       76   81   1.066
27. c.kaepernick      59   61   1.034
28. c.keenum          39   40   1.026
29. p.manning         90   92   1.022
30. e.manning        143  146   1.021
31. a.luck            70   70   1.000
32. m.hasselbeck      56   56   1.000
33. d.mcnabb          33   33   1.000
    m.trubisky        12   12   1.000
34. t.brady          140  139    .993
35. j.flacco         137  135    .985
36. m.cassel          66   65    .985
37. m.mariota         42   41    .976
38. m.ryan           141  137    .972
39. g.smith           31   30    .968
40. c.newton         109  105    .963
41. p.rivers         144  134    .931
42. b.gabbert         43   40    .930
43. c.henne           56   51    .911
44. m.sanchez         75   68    .907
45. a.smith          119  107    .899
46. d.garrard         30   26    .867
    t.bridgewater     28   23    .821
47. m.moore           30   23    .767
48. m.schaub          68   52    .765
49. c.ponder          33   21    .636

Does anyone see anything conclusive there? I mean maybe there are more mobile guys at the top and more statue guys at the bottom? It's not too clear to me.

Next you'll probably be wondering how that shakes out by team for/against, so I've taken the liberty of doing that as well. But brace yourselves, the results might down right shock you. In fact I was so shocked I had to double and triple check to make sure I didn't have things backward, and I don't, so be just as amazed as I was. Reality is not always as it seems.

By Team:

SPOILER: Click to show

          OFFENSE           OPPONENTS
        HOLDS per/G      HOLDS per/G (RK)
 1. TAM  196  1.361       147  1.021 (19)
 2. OAK  187  1.299       175  1.215 ( 3)
 3. DEN  183  1.271       153  1.063 (18)
 4. CHI  181  1.257       160  1.111 (12)
 5. PIT  180  1.250       165  1.146 ( 9)
 6. BUF  178  1.236       171  1.188 ( 4)
 7. DAL  172  1.194       130  0.903 (30)
 8. CIN  170  1.181       137  0.951 (25)
 9. SEA  168  1.167       123  0.854 (31)
10. PHI  166  1.153       167  1.160 ( 7)
11. GRB  165  1.146       132  0.917 (28)
12. TEN  163  1.132       167  1.160 ( 7)
12. WAS  163  1.132       197  1.368 ( 1)
14. NOS  156  1.083       137  0.951 (25)
15. DET  152  1.056       158  1.097 (13)
15. JAX  152  1.056       122  0.847 (32)
17. KAN  150  1.042       156  1.083 (15)
17. NEP  150  1.042       140  0.972 (23)
19. ARZ  149  1.035       144  1.000 (22)
20. NYG  146  1.014       165  1.146 ( 9)
21. BAL  143   .993       136  0.944 (27)
21. MIA  143   .993       197  1.368 ( 1)
23. NYJ  142   .986       132  0.917 (28)
24. ATL  140   .972       154  1.069 (17)
25. HOU  137   .951       157  1.090 (14)
26. CAR  134   .931       147  1.021 (19)
26. LOC  134   .931       140  0.972 (23)
28. LOR  127   .882       169  1.174 ( 6)
29. SAF  124   .861       145  1.007 (21)
30. IND  122   .847       162  1.125 (11)
31. CLE  119   .826       155  1.076 (16)
31. MIN  119   .826       171  1.188 ( 4)

    avg  153  1.066

I know what 2 teams you looked for first, so share your feelings now that your world has been rekt lol.

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

v Practice Squad Posts: 188 Likes: 53	Not Rocket Science... Oct 4, 2019 5:15:32 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by v on Oct 4, 2019 5:15:32 GMT -6 Guys, guys.... WTF is with the stats?, who cares ... Who would you rather have pick one Rogers Wilson Mahomes Cam Wentz Stafford Any other QB in NFL OR *Dck head Cousins** Next topic....
	Last Edit: Oct 4, 2019 5:17:42 GMT -6 by v

diehardtwinsfan
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Not Rocket Science... Oct 4, 2019 6:50:29 GMT -6 Reignman, Oracle Bone Diviner, and 1 more like this

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Post by diehardtwinsfan on Oct 4, 2019 6:50:29 GMT -6

Guys, guys.... WTF is with the stats?, who cares ... Who would you rather have pick one

Rogers
Wilson
Mahomes
Cam
Wentz
Stafford
Any other QB in NFL

OR

D*ck head Cousins

Next topic....

Just a question, but can you articulate your points without childish slurs and teenage humor? It gets old in a hurry and really detracts from what you're trying to day.

Reignman
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Not Rocket Science... Oct 4, 2019 9:40:36 GMT -6 Funkytown and khalilsackdaddy like this

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Post by Reignman on Oct 4, 2019 9:40:36 GMT -6

Guys, guys.... WTF is with the stats?

Ohhhh hohoho, that's borderline blasphemous right there buddy. *paddle*

Who would you rather have pick one

Rogers
Wilson
Mahomes
Cam
Wentz
Stafford
Any other QB in NFL

OR

D*ck head Cousins

Not sure who is more obsessed with a QB lol, you with Cousins, Packcycle with Rodgers, StrawmanBoss with Sloter, or Reignman with Special Ted.

Last Edit: Oct 4, 2019 9:41:54 GMT -6 by Reignman

if sitting and watching something versus actually doing it made a person great at it, Reignman would be the next Ron Jeremy.

v
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Not Rocket Science... Oct 4, 2019 10:30:54 GMT -6 Reignman, Funkytown, and 1 more like this

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Post by v on Oct 4, 2019 10:30:54 GMT -6

Oct 4, 2019 6:50:29 GMT -6 diehardtwinsfan said: